Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Pickman's model]

The generational trauma is massively under appreciated in my experience when it comes to understanding the Jewish communities….

What is your experience?

 

[Pickman's model]

"No country could turn the other cheek to an enemy holding its hostages".What planet is Toynbee on these days?

Sadly ours

 

[Kid_Eternity]

How about not stealing people's land and going from there. The whole thing is rather tiresome, and I wish humanity can move on from this. Some day

Tiresome? Yeah it must be really boring for you all these people suffering from the pain of having their family members murdered by the Nazis…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

So her take on the alleged anti semitic chant was wrong.

And she has sent money to support the IDF

Which bit of this was a hard watch for you?

Just wondering. I Iooked up the IDF thing and Knotted drew my attention to the students calling for a genocide allegation.as wrong.

So just asking.

You either have zero empathy or didn’t watch the video.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

There will be a fair amount of that on the Palestinian side too.

we don’t have to acknowledge everything all the time, or engage in whatabouttery.

 

[Protag]

Tiresome? Yeah it must be really boring for you all these people suffering from the pain of having their family members murdered by the Nazis…

The Balfour Declaration was made in 1917, and the Palastinians are not Nazi's. Awkward facts, I know

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I loathe the tribalisation ot human suffering…time to take a break from this thread.

 

[mojo pixy]

we don’t have to acknowledge everything all the time

I think we must; here, at least. It won't happen anywhere else.

 

[Gramsci]

A few days ago, I heard some IDF guy say that they wanted to create, what sounded like, something along the lines of Strategic Hamlets (Vietnam War) or secure villages (Malayan Emergency) in northern Gaza. These were widely acknowledged to be failures, and led to forced relocations and mass murders. The Strategic Hamlet Program was abandoned by 1964 when William Westmoreland replaced Paul D Harkins as US commander.

Have you a link for that. Id be interested.

I read about this in Forgotten Wars

Forgotten Wars — Harvard University Press

In September 1945, after the fall of the atomic bomb--and with it, the Japanese empire--Asia was dominated by the British. Governing a vast crescent of land that stretched from India through Burma and down to Singapore, and with troops occupying the French and Dutch colonies in southern Vietnam...

www.hup.harvard.edu

The British army had experience in dealing with rebellions.

I dont know much about the Arab Revolt but some of the same kind of techniques were used in that.

Legacy of Violence goes into the links between different parts of Empire and the knowledge that British built up to keep the colonial people in line.

Legacy of Violence

A NEW YORK TIMES, NEW STATESMAN, HISTORY TODAY AND BBC HISTORY MAGAZINE BOOK OF THE YEAR 'Masterly... This book is dynamite' - ROBERT GILDEA, author of Empires of the Mind **Shortlisted for the Baillie Gifford Prize** **Winner of the NYU/Axinn Foundation Prize** A searing, landmark study of...

www.penguin.co.uk

The Zionists learnt a lot from the British. The early origins of the Israel military was working with Orde Wingate to help put down the Arab Revolt.

Im curious an Israeli commander mentions Malaysia. And wonder how much British knowledge on dealing with colonial people has been passed down to IDF

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I think we must; here, at least. It won't happen anywhere else.

That’s bullshit, every time any tries to show any empathy towards Jewish people it’s dismissed, trivialised or just sidelines by some demand to adhere to a party like line on the occupation.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You either have zero empathy or didn’t watch the video.

I watched enough to see someone being very upset about something that didn't happen. Wasn't that interested in the rest.

 

[two sheds]

Yep, lets select what should and should not be open to questions...........fuck all that freedom of expression shit

Nope I think you need evidence before suggesting figures are distorted.

 

[Gramsci]

You either have zero empathy or didn’t watch the video.

I watched all of it and read the background on her allegations re the students- false

Also checked and she has given money to the IDF.

So no I didnt find her video that credible.

 

[frogwoman]

Have you got an

Sorry whats that supposed to mean.

I think its disgusting to equate opposition to Starmer opposing a ceasefire to this.

Yeah it would be, except I'm not doing that.

 

[mojo pixy]

every time any tries to show any empathy towards Jewish people it’s dismissed, trivialised or just sidelines by some demand to adhere to a party like line on the occupation.

That's not true, at least I haven't felt that here. I've literally said 'I love Israel' on this thread and I haven't even been attacked or dismissed for that. I think you're falling into a tribalism trap yourself tbh and it's probably a good idea to take step back.

 

[frogwoman]

Gramsci I wasn't having a joke at your expense or even replying to you. None of this is funny. I was having a passive aggressive go at those questioning the antisemitism figures, something I haven't seen you posting about. Clearly it's made the situation worse so I won't reply any more. Sorry.

 

[ddraig]

Please keep posting here on this thread if you can froggy!
Your view is invaluable imo

 

[frogwoman]

Please keep posting here on this thread if you can froggy!
Your view is invaluable imo

Thanks but I think I'd rather safeguard my mental health tbh

 

[ddraig]

Fair do's, take care

 

[Karl Masks]

This was hard to watch.

are her claims correct?

1400 people is not a genocide. No matter how abhorrent.

I do not agree with antisemitism, whrever and whenver. Was there this reaction when people chanted 'jews will not replace us' at Charlottesville a few years ago.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

BTW, The flipside of this is I also understand why some Jews will back up Israel no matter what, which is also not excusing that, just explaining it. Namely that Jews do have a lot of generational trauma and many have really internalised an idea the Everyone Hates Us and It's Going to Happen Again and Israel is Our Only Safe Refuge. So you can't criticise. It has the right to whatever it needs to do because it's not just protecting itself, it's protecting all Jews. I don't think that's right, but there are historic reasons a significant number of Jews feel that way.

I can imagine, if I was Jewish, I would feel the raw yearning of securing a homeland. I can also imagine that would form the foundation of any position I may take on Palestine. So, I have a deep respect for the many, dedicated Jewish activists in the Palestine movement.

 

[Duncan2]

are her claims correct?

Short answer is no.See Frank's post above.

 

[Gramsci]

A few days ago, I heard some IDF guy say that they wanted to create, what sounded like, something along the lines of Strategic Hamlets (Vietnam War) or secure villages (Malayan Emergency) in northern Gaza. These were widely acknowledged to be failures, and led to forced relocations and mass murders. The Strategic Hamlet Program was abandoned by 1964 when William Westmoreland replaced Paul D Harkins as US commander.

From what I remember of reading of the British counter insurgency was that they tried to separate villager ( civilians) from the communist fighters.

Every armed group fighting a colonial better equipped army needs support- food etc

Separating them and policing the civilians was part of the project.

As well as mass deportations of ethnic Chinese. Who were all suspected of being communist supporters.

And yes this all took place under Atlee Labour government. So in some ways Starmer is playing to type.

This was more gradual and planned.

I myself think its looking like the Sri Lanka elimination of Liberation Tigers of Elaam. Which was put down ruthlessly with much loss of civilian life. The level of violence on the civilian population reminds me of way Tigers were finally finished. Did not solve the problem and the Sri Lankan government road out all the human rights violations.

Take example of now Israel bomb refugee camp. Justify deaths as says it took out 50 Hamas fighters.

I think the Israel government are doing the same as the Sri Lankan government did to Tigers. Knowing the international community (USA/ UK etc) wont stop them

The remaining population will be heavily policed. And cowed into submission for foreseeable future.

 

[Gramsci]

are her claims correct?

1400 people is not a genocide. No matter how abhorrent.

I do not agree with antisemitism, whrever and whenver. Was there this reaction when people chanted 'jews will not replace us' at Charlottesville a few years ago.

No they were not:

Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

 

[redsquirrel]

That’s bullshit, every time any tries to show any empathy towards Jewish people it’s dismissed, trivialised or just sidelines by some demand to adhere to a party like line on the occupation.

This is utter bollocks.
I won't claim that there have not been some stupid posts, there have been some posts that do show a lack of appreciation, understand or sympathy but the idea that there is criticism of any empathy to Jewish people is just crap.

 

[Cloo]

I can imagine, if I was Jewish, I would feel the raw yearning of securing a homeland. I can also imagine that would form the foundation of any position I may take on Palestine. So, I have a deep respect for the many, dedicated Jewish activists in the Palestine movement.

It can certainly come at a social and family cost to take that stand although not necessarily.

 

[ska invita]

Take example of now Israel bomb refugee camp. Justify deaths as says it took out 50 Hamas fighters.

For the record Israel are saying they killed ONE Hamas, and the bombing has killed at least 50+ civilians

 

[SpookyFrank]

But they've made damn sure any wounded Hamas fighters won't be able to get treated at a hospital, you've got to give them that.

 

[Gramsci]

For the record Israel are saying they killed ONE Hamas, and the bombing has killed at least 50+ civilians

Just looked at Al Jazeera report again. They say Israel confirmed it had bombed Jabaliyah camp. Saying it had Hamas fighters in it. Using tunnels. They say killed 50. IDF argue it was justified military action

 

[ska invita]

Just looked at Al Jazeera report again. They say Israel confirmed it had bombed Jabaliyah camp. Saying it had Hamas fighters in it. Using tunnels. They say killed 50. IDF argue it was justified military action

apologies then, i was going by the phrasing of the BBC
interesting to see information being presented so differently

then again there was an example posted of all Palestinian deaths being called "terrorist kills" on israeli media, so i wonder if thats whats going on here - the figure of 50 is being most commonly cited, and clearly these were vast majority civilians