Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Pickman's model]

Israeli tanks have previously been seen to advance into open agricultural land in the northwestern, northeastern and eastern sectors of the territory.

they'll fuck that up, the land, i don't suppose it will be so good for agriculture after

 

[Pickman's model]

So as widely predicted the ground invasion has begun in earnest, with IDF units trying to reach the sea and cut the strip in two, and essentially no reaction from Israel's neighbours. Hamas are on their own here. Given the conditions I don't think they can realistically hope to hold Gaza City - - and what is there left to even hold? It's been reduced to rubble.

The Israeli government won't have a fucking clue what to do with these ruins once the last Hamas fighters are killed.

you're thinking on one level, the surface, and ignoring another, the subterranean. having control of the surface, dividing the surface into two, is not quite the coup you think it is

 

[nino_savatte]

A few days ago, I heard some IDF guy say that they wanted to create, what sounded like, something along the lines of Strategic Hamlets (Vietnam War) or secure villages (Malayan Emergency) in northern Gaza. These were widely acknowledged to be failures, and led to forced relocations and mass murders. The Strategic Hamlet Program was abandoned by 1964 when William Westmoreland replaced Paul D Harkins as US commander.

 

[frogwoman]

My questioning of statistics will have no effect on the longevity of this conflict. Statistics are used in the war of words, so their accuracy is important, particularly when we know that they are deliberately misused.

 

[Lurdan]

A few days ago, I heard some IDF guy say that they wanted to create, what sounded like, something along the lines of Strategic Hamlets (Vietnam War) or secure villages (Malayan Emergency) in northern Gaza. These were widely acknowledged to be failures, and led to forced relocations and mass murders. The Strategic Hamlet Program was abandoned by 1964 when William Westmoreland replaced Paul D Harkins as US commander.

Held to be a 'success' in Malaya which was why the US tried to do something similar in Vietnam which didn't turn out so well. (And why for a while sections of the US military considered the UK were experts in counter-insurgency).

 

[Pickman's model]

Held to be a 'success' in Malaya which was why the US tried to do something similar in Vietnam which didn't turn out so well. (And why for a while sections of the US military considered the UK were experts in counter-insurgency).

the rep's been busted: 'puncturing the counterinsurgency myth" Puncturing the Counterinsurgency Myth: Britain and Irregular Warfare in the Past, Present, and Future

 

[Bingoman]

Looks like it not just Gaza they using white phosphorous either

Evidence of Israel's unlawful use of white phosphorus in southern Lebanon as cross-border hostilities escalate

The Israeli army fired artillery shells containing white phosphorus, an incendiary weapon, in military operations along Lebanon’s southern border between 10 and 16 October 2023.

www.amnesty.org

 

[Idris2002]

Held to be a 'success' in Malaya which was why the US tried to do something similar in Vietnam which didn't turn out so well. (And why for a while sections of the US military considered the UK were experts in counter-insurgency).

The Rhodesians tried basically the same strategy, as I recall. Whatever became of them?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This feels like a turning point, not sure I see a road back from, here to anything like a peace proceas…

Open hatred of Jews surges globally, inflamed by Gaza war — Reuters

In Los Angeles, a man screaming "kill Jews" attempts to break into a family's home. In London, girls in a playground are told they are "stinking Jews" and should stay off the slide. In China, posts likening Jews to parasites, vampires or snakes proliferate on social media, attracting thousands...

apple.news

 

[Kid_Eternity]

A surge of global racism against Jews.

Factbox: How the surge in antisemitism is affecting countries around the world — Reuters

Authorities and civil society groups in many countries have reported a surge in antisemitism since the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on southern Israel and subsequent bombardment of the Gaza Strip by the Israeli military.

apple.news

Ignore this and every fascist will applaud us.

 

[Lurdan]

the rep's been busted: 'puncturing the counterinsurgency myth" Puncturing the Counterinsurgency Myth: Britain and Irregular Warfare in the Past, Present, and Future
View attachment 397939

Indeed. Yet the insurgency was defeated. Since the Briggs plan was originally put into effect under the Atlee government I guess it could be seen as a 'successful' instance of Labour's stewardship of British imperialism. Unlike Palestine.

The Malayan 'new villages' still exist and in July this year seven of them were nominated as world heritage sites

Revisiting history: could Malaya’s New Villages get heritage site nod? - The Vibes (2021)
Nga Kor Ming: Seven new villages selected for listing as Unesco world heritage sites - Malay Mail (2023)

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Thanks for that incisive response. The point I am making here is that figures for antisemitic attacks/abuse may be unreliable, to say the least. This will have no direct impact on events unfolding in Gaza or Palestine, but may do here. The statistics are often related on the TV in conjunction with stories or articles relating to demos, free speech, hate crime, flag waving and the like. The figures for antisemitic incidents are compared with islamophobic ones. More antisemitism than islamophobia, or so it would seem, despite there being many more Muslims than Jews in the UK. So is this true, or are anti-Zionist or anti-Israel incidents being conflated with antisemitic ones? Can the two sets of figures fairly be compared, and how will our saintly Home Secretary and wonderful press use such statistics?

 

[Wilf]

Hard to watch because of the blatant dishonesty and disregard for history and Palestinians. No doubt Regev can find a job for her: particularly galling is her claim that those demonstrators protesting against IDF genocide are calling for genocide…To be fair I gave up after 4 minutes: if I want pro-genocide propaganda I can get it from the BBC. So if she suddenly changed tack I would have missed it. Somehow, I think not. I do have a slight bit of sympathy for her in that it must be frightening to believe the things she does: but that sympathy is dwarfed by sympathy for Palestinian victims of ongoing genocide.

And always thought Andy McDonald a thoroughly decent bloke: so clearly a target for that piece of excrement Starmer. An apology from all those deluded Labour members who voted for Starmer would be nice. Any takers?

Agree about McDonald. Didn't vote for Corbyn but accepted a job from him. Always seemed like he thought it was a straightforward thing. 'We've had the election, let's move on, let's get on with it'.

And as to Starmer, he seems to have trapped himself in an untenable position. Attacking Corbyn over antisemitism was his thing and here we are. Pursuing a strategy that will lose seats. Even beyond his shitty politics and beliefs, its downright incompetence.

 

[Knotted]

If, for example, you decide to shout at a Jew in the street, I don't think it matters whether you are motivated by anti-zionism rather than antisemitism. The effect is that you target Jews and it should be counted as an antisemitic incident.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If, for example, you decide to shout at a Jew in the street, I don't think it matters whether you are motivated by anti-zionism rather than antisemitism. The effect is that you target Jews and it should be counted as an antisemitic incident.

Yes, I agree, in general. But if that person was waving an Israeli flag? Or a placard? Or if the person doing the shouting was unaware of the ethnicity of the victim? Or if? Or if?
I'm not trying to downplay true antisemitism, but our close friend Suella Braverman thinks that waving Palestinian flags, chanting Palestinian chants, criticising 'Israel's right to defend itself' - all these are antisemitic. The Israeli state also conflates antisemitism and anti Zionism.
Like I say, antisemitism and Islamophobia statistics are compared in the UK for political reasons.

 

[The39thStep]

Biting

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Al Jazeera being bombarded with cyber attacks. I wonder who's doing that?

Al Jazeera Media Network has been subjected to an unprecedented surge of cyberattacks aimed at crippling its website and broadcasting capabilities, while covering the war on Gaza.

These attacks are some of the most severe and intense that the network has encountered.

The teams at Al Jazeera working to mitigate these attacks have uncovered that a significant portion of them are originating from IP addresses connected to entities actively engaged in the ongoing conflict.

Additionally, certain IP addresses have been found to be employing tactics to conceal their true origins.

The nature of these cyberattacks is persistent and well-coordinated, evidently with the intention to cause substantial disruption.

They demonstrate a systematic and methodical approach, coupled with the use of sophisticated techniques.

Al Jazeera Media Network maintains its legal right to seek out and hold accountable those responsible for these deliberate and targeted cyber-attacks.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

ffs

“Gaza’s Ministry of Health says at least 400 Palestinians have been killed or wounded in an Israeli air strike on the Jabalia refugee camp.

The residential and densely populated area has been engulfed in chaos.

A correspondent for Al Jazeera Arabic on the ground says it will take “weeks” to save and pull people from under the rubble due to the scale of destruction.

People are searching through the rubble with their bare hands. Many families were still in their homes when the bombs hit.”

 

[Bingoman]

ffs

“Gaza’s Ministry of Health says at least 400 Palestinians have been killed or wounded in an Israeli air strike on the Jabalia refugee camp.

The residential and densely populated area has been engulfed in chaos.

A correspondent for Al Jazeera Arabic on the ground says it will take “weeks” to save and pull people from under the rubble due to the scale of destruction.

People are searching through the rubble with their bare hands. Many families were still in their homes when the bombs hit.”

Looking at pics on Al Jazeera the hospital nearby looks chaotic

 

[Knotted]

Yes, I agree, in general. But if that person was waving an Israeli flag? Or a placard? Or if the person doing the shouting was unaware of the ethnicity of the victim? Or if? Or if?
I'm not trying to downplay true antisemitism, but our close friend Suella Braverman thinks that waving Palestinian flags, chanting Palestinian chants, criticising 'Israel's right to defend itself' - all these are antisemitic. The Israeli state also conflates antisemitism and anti Zionism.
Like I say, antisemitism and Islamophobia statistics are compared in the UK for political reasons.

It's the Community Security Trust who gather the statistics not Stella Braverman. As far as I can tell they are sensitive to this sort of criticism. Probably imperfectly...

There are inherent problems with these statistics. They are self reported and depend on the incidents being reported in the first place and include minor incidents which probably generally don't get reported. So they underestimate the figure to an unknown degree that varies over time in an unknown way and will not be directly comparable with eg. Islamophobia stats with different methodologies (which will also be flawed).

But in any case I don't think we are going to start seeing people waving Palestinian flags counted antisemitic incidents. That will be 100,000 or so every Saturday atm.

 

[Bingoman]

Not only do Israel have hamas, Hezbollah Iran or Syria to contend with it's now the Houthis in Yemen too

Yemen's Houthis say they launched missiles, drones at Israel

Yemen's Iran-backed Houthi group said it launched a "large number" of drones and ballistic missiles towards Israel on Tuesday, after Israel's military said it downed an approaching "aerial target" off the Red Sea city of Eilat.

www.reuters.com

 

[JimW]

Indeed. Yet the insurgency was defeated. Since the Briggs plan was originally put into effect under the Atlee government I guess it could be seen as a 'successful' instance of Labour's stewardship of British imperialism. Unlike Palestine.

The Malayan 'new villages' still exist and in July this year seven of them were nominated as world heritage sites

Revisiting history: could Malaya’s New Villages get heritage site nod? - The Vibes (2021)
Nga Kor Ming: Seven new villages selected for listing as Unesco world heritage sites - Malay Mail (2023)

I was commissioned to translate a short illustrated book by a Chinese Malayan artist that included her memories of growing up in one of the villages.

 

[frogwoman]

Thanks for that incisive response. The point I am making here is that figures for antisemitic attacks/abuse may be unreliable, to say the least. This will have no direct impact on events unfolding in Gaza or Palestine, but may do here. The statistics are often related on the TV in conjunction with stories or articles relating to demos, free speech, hate crime, flag waving and the like. The figures for antisemitic incidents are compared with islamophobic ones. More antisemitism than islamophobia, or so it would seem, despite there being many more Muslims than Jews in the UK. So is this true, or are anti-Zionist or anti-Israel incidents being conflated with antisemitic ones? Can the two sets of figures fairly be compared, and how will our saintly Home Secretary and wonderful press use such statistics?

Typical.

 

[frogwoman]

This feels like a turning point, not sure I see a road back from, here to anything like a peace proceas…

Open hatred of Jews surges globally, inflamed by Gaza war — Reuters

In Los Angeles, a man screaming "kill Jews" attempts to break into a family's home. In London, girls in a playground are told they are "stinking Jews" and should stay off the slide. In China, posts likening Jews to parasites, vampires or snakes proliferate on social media, attracting thousands...

apple.news

Then there was the Dagestan airport mob attack at the weekend, no doubt just anti zionism too.

 

[frogwoman]

This feels like a turning point, not sure I see a road back from, here to anything like a peace proceas…

Open hatred of Jews surges globally, inflamed by Gaza war — Reuters

In Los Angeles, a man screaming "kill Jews" attempts to break into a family's home. In London, girls in a playground are told they are "stinking Jews" and should stay off the slide. In China, posts likening Jews to parasites, vampires or snakes proliferate on social media, attracting thousands...

apple.news

I don't see a path out of this at all I'm afraid.

 

[frogwoman]

Dagestan: Mob storms Russian airport in search of Jews

Israel urges Russia to protect Jews after furious crowd confronts passengers arriving from Tel Aviv.

www.bbc.co.uk

Probably just pissed off at Starmer and the Labour Party eh

Yeah, I think I'm done...you get the idea.

 

[andysays]

It's the Community Security Trust who gather the statistics not Stella Braverman. As far as I can tell they are sensitive to this sort of criticism. Probably imperfectly...

There are inherent problems with these statistics. They are self reported and depend on the incidents being reported in the first place and include minor incidents which probably generally don't get reported. So they underestimate the figure to an unknown degree that varies over time in an unknown way and will not be directly comparable with eg. Islamophobia stats with different methodologies (which will also be flawed).

But in any case I don't think we are going to start seeing people waving Palestinian flags counted antisemitic incidents. That will be 100,000 or so every Saturday atm.

There was an example posted upthread about a piece of graffiti in Hackney which read "Free Palestine" being reported as antisemitic, and given some of the statements from eg Suella Braverman, I don't think it's that outlandish to suggest that some reported antisemitic acts aren't what most of us would consider genuine, even if they are just waving Palestinian flags.

Again, we should be able to condemn real acts of anti-semitism like those posted by Kid_Eternity while recognising that not everything which is reported as such is genuine.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

It's the Community Security Trust who gather the statistics not Stella Braverman. As far as I can tell they are sensitive to this sort of criticism. Probably imperfectly...

There are inherent problems with these statistics. They are self reported and depend on the incidents being reported in the first place and include minor incidents which probably generally don't get reported. So they underestimate the figure to an unknown degree that varies over time in an unknown way and will not be directly comparable with eg. Islamophobia stats with different methodologies (which will also be flawed).

But in any case I don't think we are going to start seeing people waving Palestinian flags counted antisemitic incidents. That will be 100,000 or so every Saturday atm.

The CST are as dodgy as fuck

 

[Aladdin]

This stood out for me.

Does anyone know whether Hamas is sheltering ordinary Palestinians down in these tunnels.?

I'm asking because I noted figures for Palestinians dying..showed 62% are women and children.

Why...if Hamas has kms of tunnels underground...why are they not sheltering women and children there?

 

[Knotted]

There was an example posted upthread about a piece of graffiti in Hackney which read "Free Palestine" being reported as antisemitic, and given some of the statements from eg Suella Braverman, I don't think it's that outlandish to suggest that some reported antisemitic acts aren't what most of us would consider genuine, even if they are just waving Palestinian flags.

Again, we should be able to condemn real acts of anti-semitism like those posted by Kid_Eternity while recognising that not everything which is reported as such is genuine.

I don't recall it but if it was written on say, a synagogue, then fair cop.

I think the CST figures should be questioned btw. But I think they are motivated to maintain their credibility. Suella Braverman doesn't give a shit of course.