Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Larry O'Hara]

This was hard to watch.

Hard to watch because of the blatant dishonesty and disregard for history and Palestinians. No doubt Regev can find a job for her: particularly galling is her claim that those demonstrators protesting against IDF genocide are calling for genocide…To be fair I gave up after 4 minutes: if I want pro-genocide propaganda I can get it from the BBC. So if she suddenly changed tack I would have missed it. Somehow, I think not. I do have a slight bit of sympathy for her in that it must be frightening to believe the things she does: but that sympathy is dwarfed by sympathy for Palestinian victims of ongoing genocide.

And always thought Andy McDonald a thoroughly decent bloke: so clearly a target for that piece of excrement Starmer. An apology from all those deluded Labour members who voted for Starmer would be nice. Any takers?

 

[Knotted]

I don't like phrases like "zionist propaganda", but if someone is trying to scare Jews into emigrating to Israel then it's just the correct term.

 

[Rimbaud]

There is a lot of shaping of Palestinian solidarity marchers going on. Shaping them up for a good kicking and nicking.

If they are minded to, I speculate that they will send in snatch squads into future crowds to arrest whoever (they said Jihad) knowing this will cause alarm and disarray and pushback and a big row. It’s the same old playbook

I was just thinking about someone chanting on the Newcastle march. Absolutely determined to get the crowd chanting stuff which would look very bad. "Victory to! / The intifada!" "Justice, is our demand / no peace, on stolen land!" and "resistance, is justified / when Palestine is occupied!" Fortunately the crowd largely ignored these chants but they were very persistent.

I had them down as just a poser / headbanger at the time, but given some of the rhetoric from Braverman etc I'm starting to think it was special branch. I reckon next time, keep an eye out for this sort of thing and give them a talking to.

 

[krtek a houby]

I was just thinking about someone chanting on the Newcastle march. Absolutely determined to get the crowd chanting stuff which would look very bad. "Victory to! / The intifada!" "Justice, is our demand / no peace, on stolen land!" and "resistance, is justified / when Palestine is occupied!" Fortunately the crowd largely ignored these chants but they were very persistent.

I had them down as just a poser / headbanger at the time, but given some of the rhetoric from Braverman etc I'm starting to think it was special branch. I reckon next time, keep an eye out for this sort of thing and give them a talking to.

Tbf, heard much worse on a demo for Palestine maybe 20 years ago. Again, it was a few loud lads and most people were ignoring/avoiding them.

 

[Yossarian]

Tbf, heard much worse on a demo for Palestine maybe 20 years ago. Again, it was a few loud lads and most people were ignoring/avoiding them.

Heard as bad on this thread, tbh

"What happened at the rave wasn't pretty / but it's like they were at Sun City"

 

[Rimbaud]

Tbf, heard much worse on a demo for Palestine maybe 20 years ago. Again, it was a few loud lads and most people were ignoring/avoiding them.

Possibly, either way I regret not summoning up the courage to have a word.

 

[Pickman's model]

Heard as bad on this thread, tbh

"What happened at the rave wasn't pretty / but it's like they were at Sun City"

That might be quite a ditty

 

[Cloo]

gsv and I were discussing the way some people can't see/have chosen not to see that people saying 'You can understand why the Hamas attacks happened' is not the same thing as saying 'The Hamas attacks were excusable'. The fact that Hamas could find people full of enough fury and hate didn't come out of nowhere. It came from poverty, desperation, hopelessness, grief and misery that is caused by Israel's policy towards the Palestinians. It didn't have to be caused by Israel's existence but it was the path the government chose to follow.

 

[ska invita]

it was the path the government chose to follow.

cynically nurtured in fact

 

[teqniq]

Interesting analysis;

Military briefing: How Hamas fights

 

[mojo pixy]

In my quiet moments I'm afraid I'm veering dangerously close to conspiracism, thus: we have heard that the USA and Egypt both had intelligence that an incursion from Gaza was being planned before October 7th, and Egypt at least have claimed they warned Israel. I'm struggling to avoid the conclusion that the Israeli government allowed it to happen, failed to prevent it deliberately, so as to have a pretext for (as they are terming it) 'cleansing' Gaza.

I think they expected army bases to be raided; this would have been enough. But the raiders attacked kibbutzim too, which perhaps was not expected - and then also massacred a party full of youngsters. I'm sure this was not expected, and it certainly was disgusting - but ultimately I think the blame for it all needs to fall at least as much on the terrorists in charge of Israel, as on the terrorists in charge of Gaza.

Meanwhile anyway, Israel has its pretext and anyone challenging Israeli actions or reasons, is being called an anti-semitic terrorist sympathizer.

I know people there are going through a nightmare just now, and my own explosion of mental health agony from impotently watching a place I love do utterly hateful stuff, is nothing compared to the agonies in Gaza (and Israel tbh, I certainly don't blame all Israelis for the actions of their thuggish government any more than I blame all Britons for the poisonous utterances and stupidity of ours)

Apologies for this pointless interjection, I just feel .. such shame, anger, sadness and horror, j just don't know what to do about it.

 

[ska invita]

In my quiet moments I'm afraid I'm veering dangerously close to conspiracism, thus: we have heard that the USA and Egypt both had intelligence that an incursion from Gaza was being planned before October 7th, and Egypt at least have claimed they warned Israel. I'm struggling to avoid the conclusion that the Israeli government allowed it to happen, failed to prevent it deliberately, so as to have a pretext for (as they are terming it) 'cleansing' Gaza.

I think they expected army bases to be raided; this would have been enough. But the raiders attacked kibbutzim too, which perhaps was not expected - and then also massacred a party full of youngsters. I'm sure this was not expected, and it certainly was disgusting - but ultimately I think the blame for it all needs to fall at least as much on the terrorists in charge of Israel, as on the terrorists in charge of Gaza.

Meanwhile anyway, Israel has its pretext and anyone challenging Israeli actions or reasons, is being called an anti-semitic terrorist sympathizer.

I know people there are going through a nightmare just now, and my own explosion of mental health agony from impotently watching a place I love do utterly hateful stuff, is nothing compared to the agonies in Gaza (and Israel tbh, I certainly don't blame all Israelis for the actions of their thuggish government any more than I blame all Britons for the poisonous utterances and stupidity of ours)

Apologies for this pointless interjection, I just feel .. such shame, anger, sadness and horror, j just don't know what to do about it.

its utterly horrific i agree....add in stories of russian conscripts getting shot for refusing to throw themselves into the meatgrinder, 600,000 dead in Ethiopia as a result of that war, the steady march towards neo-fascism, the many coming crises on the near horizon, shame, anger, sadness and horror are the rational response.

 

[Pickman's model]

its utterly horrific i agree....add in stories of russian conscripts getting shot for refusing to throw themselves into the meatgrinder, 600,000 dead in Ethiopia as a result of that war, the steady march towards neo-fascism, the many coming crises on the near horizon, shame, anger, sadness and horror are the rational response.

have you been following the contretemps between the philippines and china? South China Sea: Biden says US will defend the Philippines if China attacks

 

[cupid_stunt]

In my quiet moments I'm afraid I'm veering dangerously close to conspiracism, thus: we have heard that the USA and Egypt both had intelligence that an incursion from Gaza was being planned before October 7th, and Egypt at least have claimed they warned Israel. I'm struggling to avoid the conclusion that the Israeli government allowed it to happen, failed to prevent it deliberately, so as to have a pretext for (as they are terming it) 'cleansing' Gaza.

Someone posted a link over the weekend to an article, which included interviews with IDF conscripts that had been guarding the fence. and had been sending warnings up the line for some months, that something wasn't right with what they were seeing, in particular Hamas training near the fence increasing rapidly, and they too were ignored.

 

[ska invita]

We'll never know if it was allowed to happen or not, the fact is theyve been cultivating this for a long time precisely for the shock doctrine reason they are clearly exploiting with glee now... That's documented

 

[Gramsci]

I vaguely remember a story about her donating to the IDF during protective edge.

This also seems to be a lie. I mean come on!

Fact Check: Video Caption Falsely Claims UCLA Pro-Palestinian Demonstrators Chanted, 'We Want Jewish Genocide'

In reality, the crowd was chanting, "Israel, Israel, you can't hide. We charge you with genocide."

www.google.co.uk

It's here:

Mayim Bialik: Why I Donated Money to Send Bulletproof Vests to the IDF – Kveller

1. I need to feel like I’m doing something. 2. No matter what your politics are, soldiers sent into war zones deserve to be protected from enemy fire. 3. Every soldier is someone’s son or daughter. Every single one. Get more Mayim news, Jewish parenting and pop culture content delivered to your...

www.kveller.com

 

[Pickman's model]

It's here:

Mayim Bialik: Why I Donated Money to Send Bulletproof Vests to the IDF – Kveller

1. I need to feel like I’m doing something. 2. No matter what your politics are, soldiers sent into war zones deserve to be protected from enemy fire. 3. Every soldier is someone’s son or daughter. Every single one. Get more Mayim news, Jewish parenting and pop culture content delivered to your...

www.kveller.com

i need to feel i'm doing something too but i suspect there'd be few good headlines in my reading 'gun-running for fun and profit' and trying to open an arms line to the pflp, or following on from her point 2) and arranging shipments of body armour to gaza and the west bank

 

[nino_savatte]

Interesting analysis;

Military briefing: How Hamas fights

This stood out for me.

“Hamas is more Vietcong than Isis,” said Hokayem, referring to the communist fighters that ultimately beat US forces during the Vietnam war, and the jihadist group that Israel likens to Hamas.

Just as the Vietcong did in Vietnam, Hamas has turned Gaza into a fortress of barricades and mouse holes — including a 400km network of tunnels that Hamas fighters can shelter in during Israeli air strikes and use to attack Israeli forces from the rear.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I was just thinking about someone chanting on the Newcastle march. Absolutely determined to get the crowd chanting stuff which would look very bad. "Victory to! / The intifada!" "Justice, is our demand / no peace, on stolen land!" and "resistance, is justified / when Palestine is occupied!" Fortunately the crowd largely ignored these chants but they were very persistent.

I had them down as just a poser / headbanger at the time, but given some of the rhetoric from Braverman etc I'm starting to think it was special branch. I reckon next time, keep an eye out for this sort of thing and give them a talking to.

And discreetly record/photograph them with your contemporary observations. Then if anybody later nicked and they are implicated might be useful in court

 

[YouSir]

New Starmer speech, no call for a ceasefire, lots of meaningless junk about a two state solution and peace without any actual content. Lots of 'I understand both sides too' but that's even more meaningless given the McDonald suspension. Can't imagine it shifts anyone's position.

 

[frogwoman]

Which does make you wonder how genuine the exponential rise in antisemitic hate crimes is. The term 'antisemitism' has lost its meaning for some. The problem with that is as I have just said. So I'm now suspicious when Jewish schools are closed as a precaution. Is it real? Is it the result of misunderstandings? Is it untrue? How can I tell? I'm not going to trawl through hundreds of claims to try and assess their veracity.

Attitudes like this are one reason why this conflict is never going to end in my lifetime. If it ever ends at all.

 

[TopCat]

Attitudes like this are one reason why this conflict is never going to end in my lifetime.

Elucidate?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

gsv and I were discussing the way some people can't see/have chosen not to see that people saying 'You can understand why the Hamas attacks happened' is not the same thing as saying 'The Hamas attacks were excusable'. The fact that Hamas could find people full of enough fury and hate didn't come out of nowhere. It came from poverty, desperation, hopelessness, grief and misery that is caused by Israel's policy towards the Palestinians. It didn't have to be caused by Israel's existence but it was the path the government chose to follow.

Yep, you see that on here all too often. Some people can’t grasp that you can understand something and not be advocating for it…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Attitudes like this are one reason why this conflict is never going to end in my lifetime.

 

[Flavour]

So as widely predicted the ground invasion has begun in earnest, with IDF units trying to reach the sea and cut the strip in two, and essentially no reaction from Israel's neighbours. Hamas are on their own here. Given the conditions I don't think they can realistically hope to hold Gaza City - - and what is there left to even hold? It's been reduced to rubble.

The Israeli government won't have a fucking clue what to do with these ruins once the last Hamas fighters are killed.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

“Satellite images published by the New York Timescast light on the extent of Israeli ground operations in Gaza so far into the conflict.

The images reveal limited advances in open areas stretching no more than a few kilometres in the north of Gaza.

Israel's military has thus far undertaken a limited and seemingly cautious approach into the besieged territory with Hamas and other Palestinian fighters believed to be well dug in and embedded in the area's tunnel infrastructure. The destruction of urban infrastructure is believed to be advantageous to a defending force, as it provides such fighters with more places to hide and launch ambushes.“

“Sources on both the Palestinian and Israeli side said on Tuesday that clashes were ongoing on the ground in Gaza with at least three main fronts seeing fighting in the coastal enclave.

The Israeli army described the clashes as "fierce battle" and said they were taking place mostly in the northwest of Gaza, according Al Jazeera and other media.

Israeli tanks have previously been seen to advance into open agricultural land in the northwestern, northeastern and eastern sectors of the territory.

There are no reports of an Israeli military presence in residential areas, as of yet.”

Israel-Palestine live: Thousands in state of panic as Israel continues to strike hospitals

More US organisations, including labour unions and Biden staffers, join call for ceasefire in Gaza

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Attitudes like this are one reason why this conflict is never going to end in my lifetime.

My questioning of statistics will have no effect on the longevity of this conflict. Statistics are used in the war of words, so their accuracy is important, particularly when we know that they are deliberately misused.

 

[YouSir]

So as widely predicted the ground invasion has begun in earnest, with IDF units trying to reach the sea and cut the strip in two, and essentially no reaction from Israel's neighbours. Hamas are on their own here. Given the conditions I don't think they can realistically hope to hold Gaza City - - and what is there left to even hold? It's been reduced to rubble.

The Israeli government won't have a fucking clue what to do with these ruins once the last Hamas fighters are killed.

The last Hamas fighters won't be killed, even if the organisation changes there's still going to be an extremist force within Gaza for as long as Israel offers no alternative beyond perpetual oppression and violence.

 

[Pickman's model]

New Starmer speech, no call for a ceasefire, lots of meaningless junk about a two state solution and peace without any actual content. Lots of 'I understand both sides too' but that's even more meaningless given the McDonald suspension. Can't imagine it shifts anyone's position.

oh but it does, it continues to alienate people formerly at least agnostic about his 'leadership'

 

[The39thStep]

I don't know what the impact of this will be however its definitely a welcome step forward in terms of solidarity