Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Cloo]

How fucking bizarre.

At the same time, I am getting a bit at some of my co-religionists in the UK - God, I know we can have a victim mentality but I have seen some people being all 'But what if Hamas set off a global crusade against Jews' and 'there's so much antisemitism, it's like Nazi Germany' and people saying they don't feel safe because their dad was Jewish and although they're not practising and they live in a very white area some people know they're Jewish and that their kids identify as Jewish and.... I am a bit 'get a grip, people' about this.

Yes, it sucks, and it's unsettling. It is worrying to think about attacks on schools and synagogues and while the possibility is horrible, the likelihood remains low of anyone succeeding in mounting a serious attack, let along multiple ones. If you don't got to Jewish places and you're not Orthodox, no one's going to be hunting you down to attack you.

The figures from the CST are interesting Antisemitic incidents – 27 October update – Blog - pretty depressing, but as I thought, the vast, vast majority of these are someone shouting something or online abuse which are nasty and frightening, but also all mouth and no trousers. Assaults and outright threats are still pretty rare.

It's not like Nazi Germany because none of this is coming from government, institutions or the mainstream media, in fact all of those are bending over backwards to be supportive to the Jewish community, nor is there any antisemitic organisation waiting in the wings that has the slightest chance of becoming a mainstream influence in this country.

I suppose at the end of the day people are nervous and just need to vent but some people do need to calm down a bit

 

[Dogsauce]

I am worried about terrorist attacks, despite Hamas being known to discourage international actions. Not just for the fear of immediate consequences and horror, but also how such an attack would be leveraged politically to attack Palestinian support and more broadly ‘the left’ which is seen to be on their side. We have a desperate government watching power slip through their fingers, and there’s no way they wouldn’t seize such an opportunity to stir up nationalism, they’d positively welcome it.

 

[Gramsci]

Honest question - is there a reason you spell it "Isreal"?

because I have problems with spelling and grammer and don't always use spell check right

 

[Gramsci]

Hamas arent Isis.

They are not calling for a Jihad in the West.

I do think some of our politicians and media pundits are making people more anxious by equating the two. Or equating the big demonstrations with rise of Islamists. That would be the recent Evening Standard pieces on this.

Id say in London Evening Standard hasn't helped. Its blaming what it sees as rise in division in London down to Islamists and Left. Both bugbears of the right.

One of the things that came up in the Introduction to Hamas I posted about was that despite the conditions of the Palestinian people Al Qaeda have not got major foothold in Palestine. Or ISIS.

This is largely due to Hamas who came out of Muslim Brotherhood being able to adapt and make themselves relevant to Palestinian cause. They have got no acknowledgement of this.

Islamic Jihad don't have the roots in community that Hamas do. Which is the bedrock of their support.

Islamic Jihad I dont now much about. But appears they are a junior player.

So the Palestinian cause unlike elsewhere has not been hi jacked by the extremists.

I say extremists in sense that Hamas are , if they were not fighting a war, a mainstream Islamic party who wil take part in elections for example. Their politics are petty bourgeois support small business, welfare for the people and encouraging inward investment from other countries. That was their programme stalled due to them being shunned by US / EU when they won elections.

Why not negotiating with Hamas when they took part in elections and won has been such a wrong move.

It of course suited Israel. But USA and EU should have seen this and done the "big boy" politics and seen these people at least one can talk to and who want to talk.

 

[The39thStep]

Athletic Bilbao

 

[Gramsci]

Has this been posted. Good old Celtic fans doing their bit:

 

[Gramsci]

Suella Braverman must have gone apoplectic over this

 

[Cloo]

Hamas arent Isis.

They are not calling for a Jihad in the West.

I do think some of our politicians and media pundits are making people more anxious by equating the two. Or equating the big demonstrations with rise of Islamists. That would be the recent Evening Standard pieces on this.

Id say in London Evening Standard hasn't helped. Its blaming what it sees as rise in division in London down to Islamists and Left. Both bugbears of the right.

And for a a start most Jihadist type groups would sooner blow one another up than decide to 'help' one another's cause.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Hamas arent Isis.

They are not calling for a Jihad in the West.

I do think some of our politicians and media pundits are making people more anxious by equating the two. Or equating the big demonstrations with rise of Islamists. That would be the recent Evening Standard pieces on this.

Id say in London Evening Standard hasn't helped. Its blaming what it sees as rise in division in London down to Islamists and Left. Both bugbears of the right.

One of the things that came up in the Introduction to Hamas I posted about was that despite the conditions of the Palestinian people Al Qaeda have not got major foothold in Palestine. Or ISIS.

This is largely due to Hamas who came out of Muslim Brotherhood being able to adapt and make themselves relevant to Palestinian cause. They have got no acknowledgement of this.

Islamic Jihad don't have the roots in community that Hamas do. Which is the bedrock of their support.

Islamic Jihad I dont now much about. But appears they are a junior player.

So the Palestinian cause unlike elsewhere has not been hi jacked by the extremists.

I say extremists in sense that Hamas are , if they were not fighting a war, a mainstream Islamic party who wil take part in elections for example. Their politics are petty bourgeois support small business, welfare for the people and encouraging inward investment from other countries. That was their programme stalled due to them being shunned by US / EU when they won elections.

Why not negotiating with Hamas when they took part in elections and won has been such a wrong move.

It of course suited Israel. But USA and EU should have seen this and done the "big boy" politics and seen these people at least one can talk to and who want to talk.

Al Qaeda and ISIS both grew from Wahabi financial support from Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure there are many Wahabists anywhere in Palestine. As I understand it Islam in the Levant has mostly been a mix of Shia and less "oppressive" Sunni sects. with a fair amount of Sufi in there too. Palestine has a tradition of being cosmopolitan, tolerant, and outward looking. So Hamas couldn't afford to be anything even vaguely like ISIS or the Taliban, they wouldn't get recruits. As I understand it Islamic Jihad have closer ties to Egypt than Hamas have which may mean they have connections with the early religious leaders behind ISIS and Al Qaeda, but as you say, they are a minor player. Unfortunately it appears there are an awful lot of Western politicians who are incapable of understanding that not everybody who identifies as Muslim is identical. Then again an awful lot of them seem to have the same problem with pretty much any label.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

And for a a start most Jihadist type groups would sooner blow one another up than decide to 'help' one another's cause.

That's because the fundamental struggle over much of the Middle East is between Sunni and Shia. I guess something went seriously wrong after The Beat Goes On.

 

[Gramsci]

The person who wrote the book on Hamas I've tried to look up to see what his take is now.

Came across this from 2021

By defending Jerusalem, Hamas stakes its claim to Palestinian national leadership

The continuous rise of Hamas's political capital in recent days has been matched by an erosion in the PA's support

www.middleeasteye.net

This has been a slow process.

Hamas control Gaza and PLO/ Fatah West Bank. The daily humiliations that ordinary Palestinians go through on West Bank led to Hamas being criticised for focusing to much on Gaza and not the overall cause. The Palestinian Authority run by Fatah/ PLO have been seen to be impotent in face of Israeli provocations

Amid this explosive atmosphere, angry and oppressed Palestinians had no hopes of any help from the politically crippled PA. Instead, they appealed to Hamas, chanting the name of military leader Mohammed ad-Deif and asking for the "strength of his sword". These chants spread widely among Palestinians, raising the pressure on Hamas.

And this

The continuous rise of Hamas's political capital is matched by an erosion in the PA's support. In recent polls surveying Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza on their preferences for a Palestinian president, Haniyeh beat Abbas by 50 percent to 43 percent.

This all goes back to the peace process that ended up as Fatah just been de facto Israel security force on West Bank. No US pressure to move to genuine two state solution. Israel governments continuing to allow illegal settlements building on West Bank. The Palestinian Authority impotent to halt this.

One thing that pushes violence is people being humiliated on day to day basis. With no recourse to any legitimate means to stop it It becomes unbearable.

Hamas were under pressure to take more interest in West Bank and not just concentrate on Gaza.

Given humiliating people feeds conflict perhaps it's more understandable how Hamas got drawn more into overall Palestine issues.

This article also shows at least in West Bank Hamas were popular

 

[ska invita]

Has this been posted. Good old Celtic fans doing their bit:

There was an amusing BBC article trying to explain why Celtic supported the Palestinian's cause that managed to never once mention irish republicanism

 

[ska invita]

Why not negotiating with Hamas when they took part in elections and won has been such a wrong move. It of course suited Israel. But USA and EU should have seen this and done the "big boy" politics and seen these people at least one can talk to and who want to talk.

You have to wonder what the USA and allies want out of the situation. There's no sign that its a resolution or any move towards peace.

 

[Gramsci]

You have to wonder what the USA and allies want out of the situation. There's no sign that its a resolution or any move towards peace.

I know. When I read the history of the British mandate Im perplexed. Did nothing to further interests of Empire and led to huge resources being tied up in it

Assume big powers are rational actors who want to further their interests and the interests of Capital. Even on a cynical level supporting this extreme right wing government in Israel makes no sense to me

Maybe Im missing something

Rashid Khalidi puts forward idea that Zionism could not have succeed without big power outside support. Britain in putting down Arab Revolt in 30s/ later US support in military aid for example. Its something he emphasizes this was never a level playing field for Palestinians.

 

[krtek a houby]

Israel/Palestine are very close to Europe and are also part of a European story. That could be why, rather than any dislike of Jews.

The Palestinian cause has had a lot of support in Ireland for many years. Some of the factors being : stolen land, erased culture, the brutal effects of colonialism. There's an affinity between our countries.

 

[teqniq]

Has this been posted. Good old Celtic fans doing their bit:

At the Liverpool game, not so much:

 

[Gramsci]

At the Liverpool game, not so much:

My friend was at match recently said one side had Israeli flag and other Palestinian. Im not up on football so don't know all ins and outs of it. Think it was Tottenham fans who waved Israeli flags.

 

[Gramsci]

Looking at Matzpen ( see my previous post on this small but influential Israeli anti zionist group )found this interview with Moshe Machover one of the founders. Who lived large part of his life in exile in London.

Was expelled from Labour party not that long ago for his anti zionist views which apparently come foul of the IHRA definition of anti semitism. What a surprise for an anti zionist Jew.

The last first Israeli anti-Zionist

Sixty years after co-founding Matzpen, Moshé Machover reflects on the organization’s enduring legacy and its lessons for today's anti-Zionist left.

www.972mag.com

His take on class and Israel is that it was different from South Africa under apartheid. Their the black working class in South Africa were part of the economy so able to exert pressure. In Israel early Zionists discourages using indigenous labour so in State of Israel the mainly Jewish working class have privileged position and no economic interest in seeing Zionism end. Palestinian working class play very minor role in Israel economy.

For him an across middle east federation of peoples can overcome this. So its not one state solution. Which to him isn't going to get support of Israel working class. Not in their self interest.

If I read him right.

He's still around and writing. But haven't read what he's saying yet.

 

[Dystopiary]

because I have problems with spelling and grammer and don't always use spell check right

Fair do's. Wasn't being funny, just wondered as some people do spell it like that deliberately for not good reasons.

 

[spring-peeper]

because I have problems with spelling and grammer and don't always use spell check right

For me, Israel is like Wednesday - I have to sound it out.

Is ra el

Wed nes day.

 

[krtek a houby]

Apologies if already posted. The blacklisting and firings continue

Prominent US figures face backlash and firings for pro-Palestinian statements

From magazine editors to Hollywood agents, supporters of Palestinians experiencing widespread rebuke

www.theguardian.com

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Looking at Matzpen ( see my previous post on this small but influential Israeli anti zionist group )found this interview with Moshe Machover one of the founders. Who lived large part of his life in exile in London.

Was expelled from Labour party not that long ago for his anti zionist views which apparently come foul of the IHRA definition of anti semitism. What a surprise for an anti zionist Jew.

The last first Israeli anti-Zionist

Sixty years after co-founding Matzpen, Moshé Machover reflects on the organization’s enduring legacy and its lessons for today's anti-Zionist left.

www.972mag.com

His take on class and Israel is that it was different from South Africa under apartheid. Their the black working class in South Africa were part of the economy so able to exert pressure. In Israel early Zionists discourages using indigenous labour so in State of Israel the mainly Jewish working class have privileged position and no economic interest in seeing Zionism end. Palestinian working class play very minor role in Israel economy.

For him an across middle east federation of peoples can overcome this. So its not one state solution. Which to him isn't going to get support of Israel working class. Not in their self interest.

If I read him right.

He's still around and writing. But haven't read what he's saying yet.

Machover used to be in my old group Big Flame

 

[JimW]

Looking at Matzpen ( see my previous post on this small but influential Israeli anti zionist group )found this interview with Moshe Machover one of the founders. Who lived large part of his life in exile in London.

Was expelled from Labour party not that long ago for his anti zionist views which apparently come foul of the IHRA definition of anti semitism. What a surprise for an anti zionist Jew.

The last first Israeli anti-Zionist

Sixty years after co-founding Matzpen, Moshé Machover reflects on the organization’s enduring legacy and its lessons for today's anti-Zionist left.

www.972mag.com

His take on class and Israel is that it was different from South Africa under apartheid. Their the black working class in South Africa were part of the economy so able to exert pressure. In Israel early Zionists discourages using indigenous labour so in State of Israel the mainly Jewish working class have privileged position and no economic interest in seeing Zionism end. Palestinian working class play very minor role in Israel economy.

For him an across middle east federation of peoples can overcome this. So its not one state solution. Which to him isn't going to get support of Israel working class. Not in their self interest.

If I read him right.

He's still around and writing. But haven't read what he's saying yet.

The39thStep will surely enjoy the organisation splitting over the entirely tangential issue of Kronstadt.

 

[Knotted]

This is a classic Matzpen text.

Moshe Machover & Akiva Orr: The Class Character of Israel (1969)

 

[Knotted]

Accordung to Al Jazeera, the US state department reports that 10's of thousands are drinking contaminated salt water.

 

[kabbes]

because I have problems with spelling and grammer and don't always use spell check right

For me, Israel is like Wednesday - I have to sound it out.

Is ra el

Wed nes day.

If it helps you to remember the spelling, you might like to know the etymology. In the polytheistic religion that Judaism was derived from, “El” was supposedly the father of the Gods (a bit like Zeus, and the father of Yahweh, who later won the PR war and became the Judeo-Christian “one God”). The literal meaning of Israel is disputed, but it is based on “Isra El”, which is something akin to “El is totes the best”.

 

[Cid]

I know. When I read the history of the British mandate Im perplexed. Did nothing to further interests of Empire and led to huge resources being tied up in it

Assume big powers are rational actors who want to further their interests and the interests of Capital. Even on a cynical level supporting this extreme right wing government in Israel makes no sense to me

Maybe Im missing something

Rashid Khalidi puts forward idea that Zionism could not have succeed without big power outside support. Britain in putting down Arab Revolt in 30s/ later US support in military aid for example. Its something he emphasizes this was never a level playing field for Palestinians.

They're not rational actors. I think the answer's that simple. It's one of the great myths of capitalism; rational self-interest does not and never has governed the behaviour of capitalists. Just the self-interest bit, and through that lens it's a mess of short-term survival, legacy, personal loyalty, symbolic power etc etc. There is a rationality there of course; if we don't cleave to the Israeli far right, then you get Trump and that will be far worse. It's a subjective and limited rationality though; it's axioms are flawed and act more to justify a need to preserve personal relevance for those in power, and a predictable path for those seeking to attain it.

 

[Pickman's model]

They're not rational actors. I think the answer's that simple. It's one of the great myths of capitalism; rational self-interest does not and never has governed the behaviour of capitalists. Just the self-interest bit, and through that lens it's a mess of short-term survival, legacy, personal loyalty, symbolic power etc etc. There is a rationality there of course; if we don't cleave to the Israeli far right, then you get Trump and that will be far worse. It's a subjective and limited rationality though; it's axioms are flawed and act more to justify a need to preserve personal relevance for those in power, and a predictable path for those seeking to attain it.

Rationality's overrated

 

[ska invita]

I've said this already on the thread but I think Israel is the USs most stable power base in the area, and a nuclear power at that. In second place I guess it's Saudi, but that's far less reliable.
That explains the majority of the self interest.

Then there's just the element that a lot of exiled and refugee Jewish people made a home in the States over the last century and have some influence on the politics there.

I did read a piece a few years ago suggesting that the current younger generation of young Jewish Americans are far more critical of Israel than previous generations and more supportive of Palestinian rights, but that doesn't seem to have trickled into meaningful Washington action yet.

 

[Karl Masks]

where are these people going to go? Even if Egypt agrees can it take them all?