Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

The Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the Russian Federation has an area of 36,271 square kilometres, and the State of Israel has an area of 20,770 square kilometres.
 
Cid said:
They're not rational actors. I think the answer's that simple. It's one of the great myths of capitalism; rational self-interest does not and never has governed the behaviour of capitalists. Just the self-interest bit, and through that lens it's a mess of short-term survival, legacy, personal loyalty, symbolic power etc etc. There is a rationality there of course; if we don't cleave to the Israeli far right, then you get Trump and that will be far worse. It's a subjective and limited rationality though; it's axioms are flawed and act more to justify a need to preserve personal relevance for those in power, and a predictable path for those seeking to attain it.
Click to expand...

ska invita said:
I've said this already on the thread but I think Israel is the USs most stable power base in the area, and a nuclear power at that. In second place I guess it's Saudi, but that's far less reliable.
That explains the majority of the self interest.

Then there's just the element that a lot of exiled and refugee Jewish people made a home in the States over the last century and have some influence on the politics there.

I did read a piece a few years ago suggesting that the current younger generation of young Jewish Americans are far more critical of Israel than previous generations and more supportive of Palestinian rights, but that doesn't seem to have trickled into meaningful Washington action yet.
Click to expand...

From memory, Chomsky says Israel is used by the west as an important bulwark against the Arabs, earlier secular nationalism, today more conservative and radical variants of islamism. He also says some of the early state actors were Christian Zionists, who thought highly of Jews returning to their supposedly religious lands. I could also rope in a line of argument I liked in an Ilan Pappe lecture, about settler colonial societies being able to recognise one another and happy to reinforce the same logic of domination.

That all said, my problem still is, even by the UK's own selfish merits, support for Israel is a terrible idea. It increases the likelihood of Arab states working against the west. It increases the likelihood of a backlash by the global south against the west. It undermines the moral position and the longevity of supporting Ukraine in its conflict. Strengthens the hand of Russia and other bad actors. It increases the likelihood of global terrorism. It commits Israel/Palestine to potentially further cycles of violence. And definitely will not make Jews, globally, any safer.
 
RedRedRose said:
From memory, Chomsky says Israel is used by the west as an important bulwark against the Arabs, earlier secular nationalism, today more conservative and radical variants of islamism. He also says some of the early state actors were Christian Zionists, who thought highly of Jews returning to their supposedly religious lands. I could also rope in a line of argument I liked in an Ilan Pappe lecture, about settler colonial societies being able to recognise one another and happy to reinforce the same logic of domination.

That all said, my problem still is, even by the UK's own selfish merits, support for Israel is a terrible idea. It increases the likelihood of Arab states working against the west. It increases the likelihood of a backlash by the global south against the west. It undermines the moral position and the longevity of supporting Ukraine in its conflict. Strengthens the hand of Russia and other bad actors. It increases the likelihood of global terrorism. It commits Israel/Palestine to potentially further cycles of violence. And definitely will not make Jews, globally, any safer.
Click to expand...
yeh but you're not seeing things entirely as they are. your rationality is not shared by eg the christian zionists in the united states, who see the existence of the state of israel in terms of eschatology and there are a lot of nutty christian zionists: have a look at david s katz & richard h popkin's messianic revolution. you'll never look at eg ronald reagan in the same way again
 
RedRedRose said:
From memory, Chomsky says Israel is used by the west as an important bulwark against the Arabs, earlier secular nationalism, today more conservative and radical variants of islamism. He also says some of the early state actors were Christian Zionists, who thought highly of Jews returning to their supposedly religious lands. I could also rope in a line of argument I liked in an Ilan Pappe lecture, about settler colonial societies being able to recognise one another and happy to reinforce the same logic of domination.

That all said, my problem still is, even by the UK's own selfish merits, support for Israel is a terrible idea. It increases the likelihood of Arab states working against the west. It increases the likelihood of a backlash by the global south against the west. It undermines the moral position and the longevity of supporting Ukraine in its conflict. Strengthens the hand of Russia and other bad actors. It increases the likelihood of global terrorism. It commits Israel/Palestine to potentially further cycles of violence. And definitely will not make Jews, globally, any safer.
Click to expand...

As a proxy though it could, I imagine, be relied upon to commit to any action requested of it no matter how extreme, especially as a nuclear power. From a US perspective at least there's a level of internal acceptance of and potential willingness to indulge in total war that any other proxy might find de-stablising/impossible. As you say though, even that logic makes no sense, the uses for that kind of last resort force are increasingly likely to only be necessary because of the relationship with Israel.
 
Pickman's model said:
yeh but you're not seeing things entirely as they are. your rationality is not shared by eg the christian zionists in the united states, who see the existence of the state of israel in terms of eschatology and there are a lot of nutty christian zionists: have a look at david s katz & richard h popkin's messianic revolution. you'll never look at eg ronald reagan in the same way again
Click to expand...
Ronald Reagan did believe in all this End Times crap, but he nevertheless ordered the State of Israel to cease fire at some point in Beirut in 1982.
 
PTK said:
Ronald Reagan did believe in all this End Times crap, but he nevertheless ordered the State of Israel to cease fire at some point in Beirut in 1982.
Click to expand...
yeh i think you've missed the point. it's not about ronald reagan, it's about christian zionists and why they support the state of israel. and at the moment i wouldn't be surprised if there's rapture among a lot of them as the potential for great violence in and around the zionist entity and its occupied territories doubtless ticks some of their pre-rapture checklist
 
Eric Jarvis said:
Al Qaeda and ISIS both grew from Wahabi financial support from Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure there are many Wahabists anywhere in Palestine. As I understand it Islam in the Levant has mostly been a mix of Shia and less "oppressive" Sunni sects. with a fair amount of Sufi in there too. Palestine has a tradition of being cosmopolitan, tolerant, and outward looking. So Hamas couldn't afford to be anything even vaguely like ISIS or the Taliban, they wouldn't get recruits. As I understand it Islamic Jihad have closer ties to Egypt than Hamas have which may mean they have connections with the early religious leaders behind ISIS and Al Qaeda, but as you say, they are a minor player. Unfortunately it appears there are an awful lot of Western politicians who are incapable of understanding that not everybody who identifies as Muslim is identical. Then again an awful lot of them seem to have the same problem with pretty much any label.
Click to expand...
As well as actual Al Qaeda leaders I'd imagine. Egyptian Islamic Jihad became part of Al qaeda a few months before 9/11 and its "Emir" Aymaan Zwahiri took over the leadership from the deceased Bin Laden. His time at the top ended with him being sliced up by a fancy American bomb in Kabul last year.
 
Idris2002 said:
Turns out Birobidzhan still exists, even though only 2% of the population now has Jewish roots;

www.france24.com

Birobidzhan: Israel-Hamas war sows discord in remote Jewish region of Russia

The furore over the Israel-Hamas war has reached all the way to Birobidzhan in Russia’s Far East, the world’s only autonomous Jewish territory outside Israel, after a local newspaper published its support…
www.france24.com www.france24.com
Click to expand...
I seem to recall in the novel Phineas Kahn by Simon Blumenfeld that the book ended when the family packed up and left the poverty of 1930s Stepney and headed off for the veritable Eden of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, all thanks to dear Uncle Joe Stalin :eek:
 
Bingoman said:
The reporter and her family in this apartment block where the only one told to leave?



So it does look like Israel are targeting journalists in Gaza by the sounds of things?
Click to expand...

If she was the only one told to leave, then we would have to conclude that the IDf was sparing journalists, by warning only journalists. I expect everyone in the block was warned.
 
Important thread about the thousands of Palestinian prisoners from a Senior Lecturer in Law at Queen Mary University
Basically they round people up old and young and stick them in jail
threadreaderapp.com

Thread by @HediViterbo on Thread Reader App

@HediViterbo: Hamas says it would release all Israeli hostages in exchange for the #Palestinians imprisoned by Israel. But what do we know about these imprisoned Palestinians? A thread 🧵 1/25 #Palestine First of all...…
threadreaderapp.com threadreaderapp.com
 
Karl Masks said:
I don't agree with people shouting Jihad, or the events in Dagestan, or people saying 'yay hamas' in some form, but those who can't understand it should be nowhere near power
Click to expand...
Yeah, agreed, of course. But facing this degree of mass murder, of people who were already squeezed, oppressed and in the shit, I almost feel like I can't be arsed doing those qualifications. Don't get me wrong, we need to oppose Islamism, we shouldn't devolve to 'my side right or wrong', but fucking hell, Israel is simply committing mass murder. Its a school shooter with an endless of automatic weapons and a promise that it will never end up in court. :(
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Protag
Israel-Iran conflicts - news and discussion
6 7 8 9 10
Replies
288
Views
16K
ska invita
ska invita
Pickman's model
Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers
12 13 14 15 16
Replies
468
Views
20K
Gramsci
Gramsci
WhyLikeThis
Mpox - news and discussion
9 10 11 12 13
Replies
387
Views
22K
Cerv
C
teqniq
Worldwide protest/actions concerning events in Gaza/Palestine/Israel
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
173
Views
11K
zahir
Z
littlebabyjesus
Israel's shoddy Gaza propaganda
2 3 4
Replies
116
Views
8K
frogwoman
frogwoman
Back
Top Bottom