Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[ska invita]

Imagine if Labour called for a ceasefire and just how much fuck all difference that would make to anything. We're way beyond the ceasefire demand now

 

[xenon]

Sure, all I've said is that based on the information available to me in my armchair is that it's easy for me to identify the specific actions of Hamas that are not morally acceptable, but less easy for me to identify the specific actions of the IDF that are not morally acceptable.

What about the cutting off of water, power, food, coms links?
Bombing bakeries?
Telling half the population to move south under threat of military action, then bombing at least some of them as they attempt to do so?

 

[cupid_stunt]

What about the cutting off of water, power, food, coms links?
Bombing bakeries?
Telling half the population to move south under threat of military action, then bombing at least some of them as they attempt to do so?

And, bombing them when they get there.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Imagine if Labour called for a ceasefire and just how much fuck all difference that would make to anything. We're way beyond the ceasefire demand now

And yet the fuckers still won't call for a ceasefire. The symbolism of it all doesn't go away.

 

[teqniq]

Except he did I would not be so stupid not to fact check it before posting it here. I'm out atm but I will find a link later unless someone else does first.

The precise wording is:



Now doubtless it can strictly be argued that he did not say those exact words to which I would respond that is just semantics; the intention is still there.

Source

The original quote from Haaretz is available in Hebrew only according to this Someone has provided a translation in one of the replies

 

[Gramsci]

London Mayor Sadiq Khan defies Labour line with call for Gaza cease-fire

His stance puts him at odds with Labour leader Keir Starmer — and comes as Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar also breaks ranks.

www.politico.eu

Belatedly Khan is calling for a ceasefire. Until now he's been loyally following Starmer line.

If the reply to my email to MP is anything to go by politicians have been inundated with emails about this.

The pressure on Khan must have been intense.

Goes to show that public pressure isn't a waste of time.

See for the march today leading Socialist Campaign Group MPs are up to speech again.

They came last week in defiance of Starmer saying MPs should not attend demos.

Heard not a squeak out of the Starmerites about suspending these MPs.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

The precise wording is:

View attachment 397370

Now doubtless it can strictly be argued that he did not say those exact words to which I would respond that is just semantics; the intention is still there.

Source

The original quote from Haaretz is available in Hebrew only according to this Someone has provided a translation in one of the replies

TBF, even outside this war, all you have to do is to look at how Israeli settlers are allowed to treat Palestinians. It's basically a fact that the Israeli state doesn't give two fucks about the Palestinians - no sensible person would try and argue that it does.

 

[platinumsage]

What about the cutting off of water, power, food, coms links?
Bombing bakeries?
Telling half the population to move south under threat of military action, then bombing at least some of them as they attempt to do so?

None of them are really as unambiguously morally wrong as torturing, raping and murdering civilians. It seems there's currently enough food and water to live off, and enough fuel for hospitals to operate. If as some argue the bombing is indiscriminate, are they then certain these bakeries have been deliberately targetted, and if so are they then certain that there was no military target there? As to telling half the population to move south, such evacuations are morally justifiable in wars, if only all invading armies issued such warnings. The bombing rate in the north has been vastly higher than in the south, and as for any incidents hitting those evacuating the evidence is not conclusive enough to determine there was any deliberate targetting of civilians. - I've certainly seen clear evidence that one such blast was caused by an explosion in a vehicle, and we know Hamas of blocked civilians form moving south.

 

[Dystopiary]

Article written by a student in Gaza:

Please keep marching for Palestine – your protests are giving hope to the people of Gaza | Nowar Diab

The demonstrations in our name make us feel that we are heard, and our cries are not in vain, says Nowar Diab, a student from Gaza City

www.theguardian.com

Anyone who asks what the point is of these protests should be shown this.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The precise wording is:

View attachment 397370

Now doubtless it can strictly be argued that he did not say those exact words to which I would respond that is just semantics; the intention is still there.

Source

The original quote from Haaretz is available in Hebrew only according to this Someone has provided a translation in one of the replies

Does that mean the original quote was in Hebrew?

 

[TopCat]

None of them are really as unambiguously morally wrong as torturing, raping and murdering civilians. It seems there's currently enough food and water to live off, and enough fuel for hospitals to operate. If as some argue the bombing is indiscriminate, are they then certain these bakeries have been deliberately targetted, and if so are they then certain that there was no military target there? As to telling half the population to move south, such evacuations are morally justifiable in wars, if only all invading armies issued such warnings. The bombing rate in the north has been vastly higher than in the south, and as for any incidents hitting those evacuating the evidence is not conclusive enough to determine there was any deliberate targetting of civilians. - I've certainly seen clear evidence that one such blast was caused by an explosion in a vehicle, and we know Hamas of blocked civilians form moving south.

You are an utter cunt

 

[planetgeli]

Not sure why anyone is engaging with the Sage boy. Let him keep making himself look ridiculous. He has very highly defined definitions between damage and destruction.





Mere damage. Probably full of Hamas hidey-holes anyway.

 

[cupid_stunt]

It seems there's currently enough food and water to live off, and enough fuel for hospitals to operate.

Not according to the likes of the UN, WHO, and other NGOs that are operating within Gaza, but if you know better, I guess we need to ignore them.

we know Hamas of blocked civilians form moving south.

Do 'we'? That's certainly what the IDF has claimed, the same IDF that claims Hamas has stolen fuel from the UN, which the UN totally denies.

Funny how you trust what the IDF says, but ignore what independent NGOs say.

 

[xenon]

None of them are really as unambiguously morally wrong as torturing, raping and murdering civilians. It seems there's currently enough food and water to live off, and enough fuel for hospitals to operate. If as some argue the bombing is indiscriminate, are they then certain these bakeries have been deliberately targetted, and if so are they then certain that there was no military target there? As to telling half the population to move south, such evacuations are morally justifiable in wars, if only all invading armies issued such warnings. The bombing rate in the north has been vastly higher than in the south, and as for any incidents hitting those evacuating the evidence is not conclusive enough to determine there was any deliberate targetting of civilians. - I've certainly seen clear evidence that one such blast was caused by an explosion in a vehicle, and we know Hamas of blocked civilians form moving south.

The horrific actions of Hamas don't change the nature of or justify attacking civilian infrastructure even if at best, it's out of wrecklessness. Oopsy another bakery, another journalists house. Forcing the displacement of a mass population under threat of attack is a tiny bit war crimey.

As for they seemingly have enough food and power. Have you not been reading anything the WHO or WFP et al have been saying? That's some pretty bold assessment from your armchair.

 

[platinumsage]

Not according to the likes of the UN, WHO, and other NGOs that are operating within Gaza, but if you know better, I guess we need to ignore them.

So far we've heard supplies are low or running out. People are currently on 3 litres per day of water according to this: Gaza: Water and Sanitation Crisis Grows - occupied Palestinian territory. It's not enough for all basic needs long term but no one is dying of thirst.

Do 'we'? That's certainly what the IDF has claimed, the same IDF that claims Hamas has stolen fuel from the UN, which the UN totally denies.

Funny how you trust what the IDF says, but ignores what independent NGOs say.

I concluded that from other evidence prior to the IDF making a statement on the mater, it's not like I'm not trying to work out who is doing what and why.

 

[platinumsage]

The horrific actions of Hamas don't change the nature of or justify attacking civilian infrastructure even if at best, it's out of wrecklessness. Oopsy another bakery, another journalists house.

Lots of justifiable wars have involved civilian infrastructure being hit. If you think Israel was not justified in going to war against Hamas, that's a position but it's surely a more morally debatable one than raping kids and gouging their parents' eyes out while they watch etc.

 

[planetgeli]

Thousands and thousands of bombs dropped on an area roughly 10% the size of, say, Cambridgeshire.

I'm sure they only meant to blow the bloody doors off.

 

[Ax^]

Lots of justifiable wars have involved civilian infrastructure being hit. If you think Israel was not justified in going to war against Hamas, that's a position but it's surely a more morally debatable one than raping kids and gouging their parents' eyes out while they watch etc.

at this point is it worth engaging with the bloodthirsty buffoon

currently defending cutting off water, fuel and food to 2.2 million people, dropping of thousand of bombs on a city the size of cambridge

and all he got to report back with is but dead Israeli babies and other bibi infused propaganda

 

[platinumsage]

dead Israeli babies and other bibi infused propaganda

fuck off

 

[Ax^]

if he had the balls to commit to his version of events

he tell us what his own acceptable ratio of dead Palestine's to one Israeli life

 

[PTK]

Lots of justifiable wars have involved civilian infrastructure being hit. If you think Israel was not justified in going to war against Hamas, that's a position but it's surely a more morally debatable one than raping kids and gouging their parents' eyes out while they watch etc.

"Lots of justifiable wars have involved civilian infrastructure being hit."
The Geneva Conventions have been updated since 1945, and it is a crime to deprive the population of the means of life: electricity, water, etc.

 

[cupid_stunt]

So far we've heard supplies are low or running out. People are currently on 3 litres per day of water according to this: Gaza: Water and Sanitation Crisis Grows - occupied Palestinian territory. It's not enough for all basic needs long term but no one is dying of thirst.

That's a somewhat dishonest claim, because the link you provides says...

Gaza is dying of thirst. 2.3 million people living in the Gaza Strip urgently need clean water. According to estimates, the population has seen its average daily water consumption reduced to three liters, which includes hygiene and cooking needs. Action Against Hunger staff report that they only have one liter of water a day for the next few days.

Action Against Hunger warns that the amount of water that has entered Gaza on aid trucks, and the absence of fuel for critical water infrastructure, remains insufficient to meet the water and sanitation needs of displaced people and the communities that host them. In addition, more than half of the water supply infrastructure is currently damaged and in need of repair.
This crisis puts the population in an even more difficult situation, with many resorting to consuming saline groundwater, increasing the risk of contracting diseases such as cholera and diarrhea, a leading cause of child mortality worldwide. Cases of chicken pox and scabies have also been detected, which can be attributed to poor sanitation and consumption of water from unsafe sources.

“Dehydration, extreme fatigue, along with thirst and dehydration or concentrated urine, which could mean that many people are suffering from kidney failure, are some of the symptoms we are starting to see. The sanitation crisis means we are on the brink of major disease outbreaks. We have reports of rats and cockroaches in displacement centers, piles up of solid waste and wastewater. We are doing what we can on the ground, but we face immense challenges.”

But, in the platinum plonker's world, all is fine.

 

[elbows]

So far we've heard supplies are low or running out. People are currently on 3 litres per day of water according to this: Gaza: Water and Sanitation Crisis Grows - occupied Palestinian territory. It's not enough for all basic needs long term but no one is dying of thirst.

Are you inviting us to ignore the talk of kidney failure in that article?

edit - I wrote that before I saw the above post by cupid_stunt

 

[platinumsage]

if he had the balls to commit to his version of events

he tell us what his own acceptable ratio of dead Palestine's to one Israeli life

The ratio is irrelevant. I’ve seen several people mention the ratio on this thread, as if Israel had only killed 1300 Palestinian civilians in their response they’d be hard done by and entitled to kill another hundred or so to make things even.

It seems it’s only fringe knuckleheads on both sides who think like that.

 

[Ax^]

coming from the guy who last few posts
have been what justifiable in a war

I think it a question you need to answer fella

other people are horrified about what going on in gaza and your talking about blowing up civilian infrastructure and cutting off supplies being justified

whilst bring up the number of dead Israelis repeatedly..

what is the acceptable figure

 

[PTK]

That's a somewhat dishonest claim, because the link you provides says...





But, in the platinum plonker's world, all is fine.

Cruelty, thy name is the IDF.

 

[xenon]

Lots of justifiable wars have involved civilian infrastructure being hit. If you think Israel was not justified in going to war against Hamas, that's a position but it's surely a more morally debatable one than raping kids and gouging their parents' eyes out while they watch etc.

My position is simply this. Israel are of course justified in responding following the outrages of 07/10. nutralising active terrorists still inside Israel, going after those who committed, sanctioned and directed such attrocities using leathful force. And later, taking steps to ensure future security.

But in the process so far, killing thousands of Palestinian civilians, destroying or at best severely compromising life support infrastructure and services they rely on, enacting collective punishment etc, is not justified. If the Israelly leadership's idea is to solve their security problem by largely depopulating Gaza, with the horror that implies, how does that even work in the medium to long term anyway.

yeah you can kill all those who you deem to be harbouring or supporting your enemies but these are called war crimes. The US could have nuked Afghanistan after 09/11, would that have been OK?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

TBF, even outside this war, all you have to do is to look at how Israeli settlers are allowed to treat Palestinians. It's basically a fact that the Israeli state doesn't give two fucks about the Palestinians - no sensible person would try and argue that it does.

And now the Israeli state is arming those settlers: Apols for long c&p but no direct link on MEE.

“A Palestinian man who was killed by Israeli settlers earlier on Saturday had been picking olives on his land at the time of the attack, according to locals.

The Palestinian Ministry of Health announced that Bilal Muhammad Saleh, 40, was killed by gunfire to the chest while picking olives.

He was transferred to Salfit Governmental Hospital in critical condition, then his death was announced.

Nader Asfour, a resident of Bilal Saleh's hometown Al-Sawiya, told Middle East Eye that the settlers suddenly attacked the families picking olives on their lands located between the towns of Al-Sawiya and Qabalan, south of Nablus.

The settlers were armed and started shooting directly at the residents, which led to Bilal being wounded in the chest and then his death.

“His family didn’t find a way to transport him other than the ladder they use to pick olives, due to the difficulty of vehicles and ambulance crews reaching the area,” he added.

This area has witnessed many attacks by settlers under the protection of the Israeli army, and their latest attack on Saturday is one of dozens.

“All our lands are besieged and we can’t reach them. The Israeli army closed all the roads, and every time we tried to open them, the soldiers came and closed them again. We didn’t go to pick olive trees this year because of all these restrictions,” Asfour said.

Bilal Saleh tried with his family to go several times to their land to pick olives, but the permanent presence of settlers on the outskirts of the town had prevented them from doing so.

Today they decided again to try to reach their trees, and as soon as they entered their lands and began picking olives, the settlers attacked them and shot them without any reason, Asfour said.

"The army is present on the nearby mountains and monitoring everything. The people were on their lands carrying nothing but ladders and bags to collect olives. The settlers attacked them brutally."

Since 7 October, Israel has closed dozens of side roads with bulldozers and placed dirt barriers to prevent Palestinians from using them.

Settlers' attacks have increased in the area as they try expand their settlements, most notably south of the city of Nablus.

Groups of settlers have also attacked Palestinian olive pickers in the villages of Battir west of Bethlehem, Deir Jarir east of Ramallah, and Deir Istiya and Haris, near Salfit, forcing them to leave their lands at gunpoint.

Six Palestinians were killed by settlers' bullets in the village of Qusra, south of Nablus, on 13 and 14 October after their homes and property were attacked.”

 

[PTK]

Someone on the radio said that Hamas is a threat to the existence of the State of Israel. I wonder if he ever considered it from the other point of view: that the State of Israel is a threat to the Palestinian Arabs.

 

[agricola]

Someone on the radio said that Hamas is a threat to the existence of the State of Israel. I wonder if he ever considered it from the other point of view: that the State of Israel is a threat to the Palestinian Arabs.

Or that the current Israeli government is a threat to the existence of the State of Israel.