Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[CNT36]

With the massacre of the ravers, Hamas went over the edge into evil. And now Israel is gleefully following them:

Fuck's sake.

 

[Idris2002]

Fuck's sake.

There'll be plenty more like this yet, don't worry!

 

[The39thStep]

Absolutely.

Anyone who can possibly respond to these events with anything that vaguely relates to begining with "but Israel ..." should immediately recuse themselves from the thread.

I thought A380 was on about you tbh

 

[Idris2002]

WT actual F latest:

 

[emanymton]

Yes, think you're right, I think from their point of view the casualty count will be far more in their favour than any other recent episode even if the IDF go in hard. Wonder if they expected/hoped for more from Hezbollah?

What is the main strategic objective here then? To spread fear amongst Israeli civilians thinking they will want to give up if enough fear is created? If so another lesson not learnt from history, or just from Ukraine.

Or was it really just to kill as many Israelis as possible?

 

[two sheds]

Absolutely.

Anyone who can possibly respond to these events with anything that vaguely relates to begining with "but Israel ..." should immediately recuse themselves from the thread.

Absolutely.

Along with anyone beginning with "but Hamas ..."

 

[Spymaster]

I thought A380 was on about you tbh

I know you did.

Right after Johnny Vodka's hackneyed bollocks too.

It demonstrates your bias on the subject.

 

[Spymaster]

Absolutely.

Along with anyone beginning with "but Hamas ..."

That didn't work.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I thought A380 was on about you tbh

To be fair anything Israel and Palestine devolves into Spider-Man pointing meme so…


This is usually why I stay away from it and I really should try to do so again.

 

[teqniq]

WT actual F latest:

Archived link to Haaretz article: Another Concept Implodes: Israel Can’t Be Managed by a Criminal Defendant

 

[LDC]

How could this go then...?

Ground invasion of Gaza, brutal for all, but it mostly stays limited to that area and involvement? Ground invasion of Gaza, other actors get involved and it escalates beyond Israel to Lebanon or further afield. Or something else, what do people think are the most likely outcomes in the weeks or months?

 

[A380]

What is the main strategic objective here then? To spread fear amongst Israeli civilians thinking they will want to give up if enough fear is created? If so another lesson not learnt from history, or just from Ukraine.

Or was it really just to kill as many Israelis as possible?

Its probably a combination of provoking even more death and disruption in Gaza to secure their position there, reaching out to the disaffected 'Arab street' to raise political capital and cash ,and it doesn't harm the strategic interests of their Iranian backers to both put pressure on the IDF and Israeli intelligence and also divert the Iranian population from their own current struggles. These are all rational and intelligent plans.

Some of the mid tier Hamas leadership might have believed that Fatah and Hezbollah were on side and were going to come in from the North and the West Bank to make this a full on war. Or perhaps one or both of those groups did promise the Qatar based high command they would do this, but are playing a longer game?

 

[two sheds]

That didn't work.

Well I was thinking of

Hamas knew this would be part of the Israeli response. They might be child murderers and rapists but they're not fucking idiots.

This is their fault.

How is that different from:

Israel knew this would be part of the Hamas response. They might be child murderers and rapists but they're not fucking idiots.

This is their fault.

 

[CNT36]

WT actual F latest:

This likely didn't begin with Netanyahu.
Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”
“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

 

[kabbes]

Absolutely, 100%.

Now where has that got you?

Well, you tell me. You seem to feel that if we just go about loudly condemning each act in isolation, that’ll solve the problem. You don’t want to engage in any analysis of how we got here, in the hope of finding a way forward, no matter how much it is noted that “understanding” is not the same as “endorsing”. So you tell me where this loud condemnation has got us.

 

[A380]

How could this go then...?

Ground invasion of Gaza, brutal for all, but it mostly stays limited to that area and involvement? Ground invasion of Gaza, other actors get involved and it escalates beyond Israel to Lebanon or further afield. Or something else, what do people think are the most likely outcomes in the weeks or months?

I think the IDF will take the opportunity to smash the infrastructure and economy of Gaza even more that it already is, capture or kill as many Hamas people as they can find and probably extend that to other people demonstrating leadership in those communities.

Can't see further military incursions from the west bank or Lebanon as presumably they would have coordinated actions if they were going to do so. Probably some high intensity street actions in the occupied territories combined with loan actor attacks. Plus 'spontaneous' demonstrations in Egypt and Iran.

Plus endless pages of sub sixth form debate on here till the thread becomes unreadable through crayoning until the ban hammer is used.

But I'm probably wrong, I normally am (except about this thread, I'd bet a small sum of money on myself there).

 

[JimW]

What is the main strategic objective here then? To spread fear amongst Israeli civilians thinking they will want to give up if enough fear is created? If so another lesson not learnt from history, or just from Ukraine.

Or was it really just to kill as many Israelis as possible?

Looks to have been some time in the planning though haven't they claimed it's in response to recent incursion around the Al-Aqsa mosque as well as accumulated grievances in the settlements? I expect having an increased capability to inflict casualties they were looking to use it. Don't suppose they've got a plan B waiting for any incursion into Gaza? As in, their strategy is to fight Israel when the opportunity arises. Not that I know, obviously.

 

[Raheem]

I think the worst problem ATM is that Israel doesn't know what it's going to do or why.

Cutting off the water is not rational.

 

[Spymaster]

Well I was thinking of



How is that different from:

As I said, it doesn't work. As I subsequently explained, the second sentence was ironically intended.

However, Hamas would have known precisely what the immediate Israeli response would be, but still went ahead. So, even if that was your intended comparison it's still senseless. Hamas has absolutely not acted in the best interests of those they purport to represent. Israel tends not to deliberately draw murderous attacks upon its people.

 

[The39thStep]

I know you did.

Right after Johnny Vodka's hackneyed bollocks too.

It demonstrates your bias on the subject.

No one is neutral tbh even though I admire the effort you put in to try and be so .

I , and most right minded people at times might have huge differences with the methods or actions used by those fighting for independence and against oppression for example against apartheid , for a united Ireland or an independent Palestine but will always back the objective .

 

[CNT36]

I think the IDF will take the opportunity to smash the infrastructure and economy of Gaza even more that it already is, capture or kill as many Hamas people as they can find and probably extend that to other people demonstrating leadership in those communities.

Can't see the further military incursions from the west bank or Lebanon as presumably they would have co-ordianted actions if they were going to do so. Probably some high intensity street actions in the occupied territories combined with loan actor attacks. Plus 'spontaneous' demonstrations in Egypt and Iran.

Plus endless pages of sub sixth form debate on here till the thread becomes unreadable through crayoning until the ban hammer is used.

But I'm probably wrong, I normally am (except about this thread, I'd bet a small sum of money on myself there).

Co-ordinate doesn't necessarily mean at the same time. If Israel were to commit its forces to actions in amd around Gaza it might be a good opportunity for an attack from another front to have a big impact. I'm not predicting this but I don't think you can rule something out just because it hasn't happened yet. This could happen opportunistically rather than as some grand co-ordinated plan as has happened on a small scale in the west bank.

 

[two sheds]

As I said, it doesn't work. As I subsequently explained, the second sentence was ironically intended.

However, Hamas would have known precisely what the immediate Israeli response would be, but still went ahead. So, even if that was your intended comparison it's still senseless. Hamas has absolutely not acted in the best interests of those they purport to represent. Israel tends not to deliberately draw murderous attacks upon its people.

Replace Hamas with Israel and Israel with Hamas - you're demanding that people not find excuses for Hamas (which I agree with) but then finding excuses for Israel. You say it was ironic but then go on to explain how you think it's true.

And if "Israel tends not to deliberately draw murderous attacks upon its people." were true we wouldn't be in this whole situation, and Israel wouldn't now be bombing Palestinian civilians and turning off the water supplies.

But anyway, fucking horrible situation on all sides

 

[Rimbaud]

How could this go then...?

Ground invasion of Gaza, brutal for all, but it mostly stays limited to that area and involvement? Ground invasion of Gaza, other actors get involved and it escalates beyond Israel to Lebanon or further afield. Or something else, what do people think are the most likely outcomes in the weeks or months?

My gut feeling is the scale and shock of this attack is going to trigger a response that changes the situation permanently.

Israel is cutting off food, water, electricity and fuel to Gaza, but apparently they are allowing Egypt to provide resources still.

I think combined with bombing and a land invasion they will seek to make Gaza unliveable with the aim of forcing the inhabitants to flee across the Egyptian border.

I hope I am wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

 

[TopCat]

PR wise ?

I think Ukraine has created a concept of winning via having a slick social media rather than by actually winning.

 

[Spymaster]

Well, you tell me. You seem to feel that if we just go about loudly condemning each act in isolation, that’ll solve the problem. You don’t want to engage in any analysis of how we got here, in the hope of finding a way forward, no matter how much it is noted that “understanding” is not the same as “endorsing”. So you tell me where this loud condemnation has got us.

Once again, condemnation of things we find ethically unacceptable is as important as support for those we believe are beleaguered.

It's also useful to define attitudes of others to situations; to define enmities and alliances, and weight to be given to various opinions. For example, there are plenty of people posting on this thread whose opinions on the subject are thoroughly sensible and reasoned. Yours, I believe, are wholly worthless.

 

[CNT36]

My gut feeling is the scale and shock of this attack is going to trigger a response that changes the situation permanently.

Israel is cutting off food, water, electricity and fuel to Gaza, but apparently they are allowing Egypt to provide resources still.

I think combined with bombing and a land invasion they will seek to make Gaza unliveable with the aim of forcing the inhabitants to flee across the Egyptian border.

I hope I am wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

What does the bit about Egypt mean? Do you have a link?

 

[Raheem]

My gut feeling is the scale and shock of this attack is going to trigger a response that changes the situation permanently.

Israel is cutting off food, water, electricity and fuel to Gaza, but apparently they are allowing Egypt to provide resources still.

I think combined with bombing and a land invasion they will seek to make Gaza unliveable with the aim of forcing the inhabitants to flee across the Egyptian border.

I hope I am wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

Think that that is one possible outcome. Hopefully it is too extreme to actually happen.

 

[LDC]

Think that that is one possible outcome. Hopefully it is too extreme to actually happen.

Given what has happened I expect that to be the absolute least that Israel will do tbh.

 

[Rimbaud]

What does the bit about Egypt mean? Do you have a link?

I can't find where I saw it I'm afraid. But Israel does not control the border crossing to Egypt.

I imagine Palestinian refugees will have an easier time crossing the Egyptian border than the Israeli one.

 

[TopCat]

Absolutely.

Anyone who can possibly respond to these events with anything that vaguely relates to begining with "but Israel ..." should immediately recuse themselves from the thread.

Stop trying to control the debate