Slippery slope. Israel were warned by their own intelligence agencies that violence they could stop would make attacks on Israel/Israelis more likely. Let's blame them or the settlers or the mandate or the Romans
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
Israel is responsible for how they choose to respond as are Hamas responsible for the attacks they choose to do.
You are contradicting your previous argument here by apologising for the Israeli response as caused by Hamas. How is that different to people apologising for Hamas by reference to what they are responding to?
tommers
It was... Rebekah Vardy's account
Hang on, I thought that people were responsible for their own actions, despite the previous actions of others?
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
I think that if they had, for instance, concentrated on attacking military targets rather than civilian ones, that would still count as fighting back, and would be "a bit gentler". Do you not think that attacking military targets counts as fighting back?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh let's take things in isolation and refuse to look at the actual context, that'll give us a great analysis. for me, it's not so easy to tell which israeli adults are civilians and which are military due to the conscription in israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel; Militarism in Israeli society - פרופיל חדש). and following military service people are put into reserve units. given the centrality of festivals to many people on urban, it's probably a bit close to home to have a festival attacked. from the palestinian pov, though, it's likely viewed as killing off-duty soldiers than civilians.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I'm contrasting opinons that have been voiced here. We've had posters insisting that we view the Hamas attack in terms of previous Israeli actions. Now we have them refusing to see Israel's actions in terms of Hamas murders. Total double standards.
Who has refused to see Israeli actions in terms of Hamas' murders?
One of my earliest posts on this was saying that the morality of killing innocents aside, the attack is unlikely to bring anything but more suffering to Gaza.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
people who demand 'complete horror and contempt for the perpetrators of atrocities' as a first response make me question the humanity of people on the left. i'd rather seek a mite of understanding of why things have happened than go straight for the majorite condemn a little more and understand a little less.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I think fighting back is fighting back. It doesn't become not fighting back depending on whether I approve.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Hamas said it's received Iranian support, with Iran publicly praising the event. Iran praises Hamas as attack reverberates around Middle East
I guess it depends what is meant by control
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
People who don’t look at the murder of random people at a festival or in the street and instead go “well first we must understand why this has happened” make me question the humanity of people on the left.
I understand why we are here, that Israel is an artificial state imposed on territory stolen from others (what state is not) and I understand that it has done horrific things to the Palestinians for decades. But I still cannot look at the field of dead, on both sides, without horror. These were people regardless of whether Israeli or Palestinian.
I’m not going to look at the dead and think “well if the Israeli state had done x in 48 they’d still be alive”
Gaza's hospitals on verge of blackout after Israel cuts electricity supplies
Health care system close to buckling as Israel takes punitive decision to end electricity supplies to besieged enclave
www.middleeasteye.net
Gaza hospitals are now failing due to power being cut.
Who knows how many additional lives this will cost when the inevitable land invasion begins.
What a mess.
I have a feeling this is going to end with another refugee crisis. Perhaps people in Gaza will be forced to flee to Egypt.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you're not really saying anything there. sure we have all looked at it. i don't demand you share my reaction, but you seem to want me to act as you would prefer than any other way.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
That's completely different to what you were saying in your previous post, though.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
consistency is perhaps overrated
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Was my previous post a statement?
dilute micro
esse quam videri
There's a ton of fault to be spread around. The curious elements are what Hamas expected to result from this. This is clearly outside the usual, and the wrath of Israel would follow by any calculation. Hamas talks about victory and of this spreading. Again, if this was indeed set up by Iran, as it's being reported, to damage Saudi-Israel relations, it would make sense. Begs the question of how anything can get better with Israel and Palestinians unless everyone in the region agrees with it.
Plumdaff
joy in people
I find it bizarre that people wouldn't look at this horror, try to understand why it's happening, as a way of trying to understand how it could get better.
I don't go on Twitter but here and elsewhere I've seen people criticised for condemning all the atrocities, rather than only some.
Some of the arguments on this thread remind me of the Republicans and the NRA after the next inevitable mass shooting in the US. No thinking! No context! Only a superficial emotional response allowed at this difficult time!
I don't go on Twitter but here and elsewhere I've seen people criticised for condemning all the atrocities, rather than only some.
Some of the arguments on this thread remind me of the Republicans and the NRA after the next inevitable mass shooting in the US. No thinking! No context! Only a superficial emotional response allowed at this difficult time!
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
Where were the right wingers on this thread over the last few years of massively increased violence against Palestinian civilians, including relentless violence against children?
Why does this violence resonate with you and not violence against the Palestinians?
Why does this violence resonate with you and not violence against the Palestinians?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The people with the power to make this better, the zionists, have spent decades making it worse.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Whereas the good people in the government and intelligence agencies in the Islamic Republic of Iran have done all they could over the same decades to assist in helping Hamas come to a peaceful and equitable negotiated settlement...
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Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Israel is now cutting the water off.
Absolute cunts in charge who are going to just kill even more and the cycle of violence will continue to get worse - if anyone survives the next few weeks
Absolute cunts in charge who are going to just kill even more and the cycle of violence will continue to get worse - if anyone survives the next few weeks
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I read the Haaretz editorial and found it more balanced than many posts on here
Plumdaff
joy in people
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
That’s not a high bar TBF.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Hezbollah apparently had more direct training and inputs, Hamas as you suggest a handy stick to poke Israel with but not Shiite etc and far more tenuously linked.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I was waiting to see who would first bring up the collective punishment of Israel cutting off the services in response to the massacre of 250 of their kids, the rape of multiple women and girls, and the hostage taking of a couple of hundred civilians of all ages.
Congratulations. It's a shame this didn't seem to be a consideration for Hamas.
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