Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Of course Palestinians deserve a voice. They have a voice, voices Nobody here is not hearing that voice, those voices, not if contributions so far are anything to judge by. I'm certainly not. But visiting a place doesn't automatically confer the privilege of acting as its voice. You've just taken it upon yourself like some self-important internet bloke, as if it's not enough to have opinions (which aren't unreasonable; Gaza is an open-air prison, you'd be hard pushed to find anyone - even in Israel, believe it or not - who would honestly disagree). You've gone "Having visited I think..." as if this gives your opinions extra weight. It does not. And if it did, would that mean you gave extra weight to the opinions of people who were born there, lived there and travelled there, worked there, or who visit regularly and know a lot of people there?
I think we both know the answer to that.
So I'm not really arguing with your opinions on Israel/Palestine, we most likely agree on a lot about that situation. (I have to add though, that whole 'pathetic' thing, it really was. Grow up, doc.)
That's fine, it'll be here when you've time
Riklet
procrastinación
They aren't kids because they're over 18. They are adults.
That doesnt mean I support what Hamas have done. It's barbaric. We can explain it (decades of brutalisation) but not justify it. Some of the ravers were almost certainly involved in anti occupation activities (I saw evidence about one guy dead/missing on Twitter). And just because the majority did/had done military service doesn't justify it.
It's possible that Hamas' battle plan went to shit in the moment. Military attacks and kidnappings seemed pretty planned. I doubt the top brass will be that happy with live streams of beheadings and rapes and shooting civilians. But it's also clear that tons of Palestinians who aren't Hamas military brigades crossed the border and were joining in too.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The whole death toll makes horrific reading imo. Not just the 250 killed at the festival, but also the 413 Palestinians have been killed, including 78 children and 41 women, and nearly 2,300 wounded by Israeli air strikes on civilians in Gaza.
Selective outrage or ethical relativism doesn't really focus on how to prevent further slaughter but then again that isn't the motive of those posters who engage in it.
Selective outrage or ethical relativism doesn't really focus on how to prevent further slaughter but then again that isn't the motive of those posters who engage in it.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No he doesn't. At least that response doesn't suggest it. He's being sarcastic.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Spymaster you're reacting to an extremely brutal situation. So you might need to take a breath.
Everysingle murder in Gaza and in Israel should be condemned.
Every single one.
Neither "side" is clean or right.
The Palestinians have lived under a brutal occupation for a long time. Rockets blowing up killing families. Many more Palestinians have died without a word of condemnation from the allies of Israel.
Hamas is a despicable terrorist group. I am sure there are ordinary Palestinians who do not support them. Killing elderly dementia patients and young people at a festival.. videos of beheadings..these are brutal terrorists who will stop at nothing. I suspect even if Israel handed back the Gaza strip these terrorists would still target Israel because they don't want it there.
These attacks also give Israel carte blanche to blast the Palestinians to smithereens. Netanyahu will now feel justified...the hero.
There is no solution to this whilst each has a mindset that views the other as inhuman. What drives people to kill? What has driven the Isrseli state to kill women and children? Fear? What has driven Hamas? Hate?
As long as they are all operating from a position of fear and hate this catastrophe will go on.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ridiculous.
Cid
Proper break this time
He's clearly using sarcasm to point out that the condemnation is redundant. It's like offering hopes and prayers. It's empty and gets you no further in processing what has happened, and what might happen next.
For all your posturing you're more politically aligned with most on here than you pretend. Sure, there are some cranks, but the majority are quite clearly horrified by what's happened. You're also using this thread to troll 'the left' again, so maybe look at where you're casting stones from.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Condemnation is not redundant. It serves to indicate that certain courses of action are entirely unnaceptable, and when that condemnation comes from sections that otherwise might support the wider aims of the perpetrators, further serves to potentially forestall future such actions for fear of alienating potential allies.
I've no issues with the majority view here. I'm challenging the minority ones and if that's seen as 'trolling lefties', so be it.
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Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
One thing I don't like about the online cheerleader crowd is their apparent rush to deny the possibility that Hamas fighters have perpetrated acts of sexual violence and rape against women they've taken hostage. The line on twitter seems to be that the Israeli side are pushing this story, therefore it can be safely ignored. Well, it shouldn't be fucking ignored.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
You're right.
And Israel is surrounded by Arab nations, some of whom are clearly hostile. They will fight toorh and nail for their survival as a state.
It's a monumental mess.
The ONLY solution is to stop..
But that won't happen
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
The attack on young people at that festival was disgraceful and I hope no one's doing the ludicrous "we are all Hamas" chant that the idiotic Swerps used to be so keen on. Hamas are cunts. Always were.
At the same time, acknowledgement of the decades long occupation, the continual merciless attacks and repression by the Israeli state and the imprisonment of the Palestinian population in the Gaza and the West Bank. None of this makes Hamas atrocities right but it's nothing less than predictable, especially given the current far right Israeli regime's recent talk of liquidating Palestinians.
My heart goes out to the families of those murdered at the festival and those Israelis randomly killed and kidnapped by Hamas. But it also goes out to those Palestinians who are, and will continue to be, bombed to bits by Israeli planes, bulldozed out of their homes, shot in the streets and locked down in ghettos.
There will be no happy ending here.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
No doubt at all in my mind that Hamas are capable of this.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
The cheerleading crowd in most western countries aren't aware of what sexually conservative cultures produce - i.e., young men you wouldn't leave your sister alone with.
(I mean sexually conservative cultures of any kind, be they Muslim, Christian or worshippers of the Ichor God Bel-Shamaroth)
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
I presume you've seen all the stuff about sexual violence in Ireland during the war of independence and the civil war? It says a lot that it's taken no less than one hundred years for that stuff to be publicly acknowledged.
Syria and Hizbollah are hostile to Israel and the former only technically. Israel is much more worried about Iran and the Palestinian population under their control, including the Palestinian demographic threat. Palestinians existing in large enough numbers are considered a threat to "Jewish democracy".
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Yes. I know.
And the 100 years wait is probably because people's descendants live in communities together.
The civil war as you know pitted brothers and fathers and whole families against each other. Atrocities and dreadful murders took place. Afterwards there was a need to move on. And I remember that my grandfather and his peers never spoke about the civil war. Collectively everyone moved on because memories and recounting what happened would not have helped. It would have continued the hatred and possibly the violence.
Even 100 yrs on the revelations have drawn hate out again between families.
Sometimes...no matter what has happened in the past,.it is important to draw a line and move forward. Otherwise we end up looking over our shoulder for ever.
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Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I think rape is about power. Not sex.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
If Hamas had invaded Sderot and raped 250 women, I very much doubt we'd be hearing 'but Gaza is an open-air prison' and "contextualisations" that highlight previous actions of Israel.
What Hamas have actually done is worse.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
It's about both.
An absolutely stupid move PR wise. I don't know what was to be gained by murdering 260 (at least) unarmed young people, from various nationalities and faiths like that. If you want the narrative to go your way don't do shit like that. And let it be recorded on dashcams. Idiotic. A lot of sympathy for their cause went out the window there.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
A line is crossed every time a Palestinian family is ejected from their home to make way for an Israeli "settler" (not just my POV - it's illegal). But absolutely no outcry from UK or US politicians, or Zelensky for that matter. Maybe it's been decriminalised?
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
QED.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
It would have been utterly incredible if something like Zionism hadn't emerged in the 19th century, the great age of nationalisms, and of modern anti-semitism.
This is another point the cheerleaders get wrong - they look at what Zionism does have in common with other cases of settler colonialism, and think they can then switch their brains off, and not think any more about the concrete realities of the case (spoiler: they do have to think about them).
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
PR wise ?
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