Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[TopCat]

People seem mighty sure that the massacre was due to the "conditions in Gaza" rather than say, Iran-backed fundamentalists wanting to rid Israel of Jews.

Tell us what you think

 

[Plumdaff]

Of course the appalling deaths at that festival are horrific. I'd suggest that all deaths in this conflict are horrific, and cheering on Israel's 'right to self defence' in this massively asymmetrical and colonial conflict does nothing but condemn more people on both sides to hideous fates. A position which demands one side continually condemn themselves while the other side commits atrocities with more than impunity, with international support - that isn't a route to peace.

 

[kabbes]

People seem mighty sure that the massacre was due to the "conditions in Gaza" rather than say, Iran-backed fundamentalists wanting to rid Israel of Jews.

Yes, if Gaza was an integrated part of Israel with equal rights, equal distribution of wealth and equal representation, and no starvation, state-sponsored deaths, maiming and systematic abuses of human rights, I’m sure that would have made no difference at all to attacks on Israel being launched from the strip.

 

[Riklet]

Well worth a watch.

 

[kabbes]

People seem mighty sure that the massacre was due to the "conditions in Gaza" rather than say, Iran-backed fundamentalists wanting to rid Israel of Jews.

I’d also note that your link is also documenting a reaction to colonisation, and what happens when the colonisers try to obliterate rather than acknowledge the knowledge of past atrocities, and pretend that the colonisation is just rather than recognise that it caused misery and displacement from homes.

 

[platinumsage]

Yes, if Gaza was an integrated part of Israel with equal rights, equal distribution of wealth and equal representation, and no starvation, state-sponsored deaths, maiming and systematic abuses of human rights, I’m sure that would have made no difference at all to attacks on Israel being launched from the strip.

I'm sure if no one had wanted to wipe Jews off the map there wouldn't have been any reason for Gaza not to have been what you say in the first place. Everything that has led up to now has contributed to the current state of affairs, obviously.

 

[kabbes]

I'm sure if no one had wanted to wipe Jews off the map there wouldn't have been any reason for Gaza not to have been what you say in the first place. Everything that has led up to now has contributed to the current state of affairs, obviously.

Of course it did. But Israel has no interest in acknowledging and thus dealing with their own role in the ongoing oppression of the Palestinian populace , and how they thereby created a displaced and desperate people. And I do mean Israel here, not “Jews”.

 

[emanymton]

The reason for pointing out the conditions in Gaza is not to support or even endorse the massacres. It’s merely to recognise that the massacres exist as a reaction. In turn, this recognition means that if you want to prevent future massacres, you need to address the conditions that created the reaction.

If you don’t do this, if you don’t try to understand the context and thus recognise that any solutions need to encompass this context, you’re basically accepting that there will be future massacres. And surely that is way worse.

It really is just the old standby of people trying to understand something being accused of justifying it.

Although it does seem In this case that some of those doing the understanding don't quite get the distinction either.

 

[JimW]

That article I linked in my last post suggested Israel can't sustain the sort of punitive incursion it used to, but I think part of their reasoning was the pushback which might be more muted given the scale of the Hamas action.

 

[ska invita]

Maybe now might be a good time to condemn the atrocities committed by these people rather than indulging in more rounds of 'yes but what about' wrt the evil shit also committed by the Israeli state.

I condemn the atrocities committed by Hamas - fucking horrific.
I condemn the atrocities committed by Putin - the ultimate crime.

As far as those Israelis saying "kill all Palestinians" are concerned, I hold them in the same contempt

...and on the circle of contempt and condemnation goes

 

[Rimbaud]

Netanyahu says Israel’s siege ‘just getting started’ – as it happened

This blog is now closed. The latest Israel-Hamas war news is here.

www.theguardian.com

Incredibly, the Guardian reports via Haaretz (I would use the Haaretz link but it is in Hebrew) that Hamas fighters continue to cross the border from Gaza into Israel.

I'm stunned that the IDF still hasn't regained control. Is there any decent analysis out there about why they have lost control so badly?

 

[Spymaster]

The reason for pointing out the conditions in Gaza is not to support or even endorse the massacres. It’s merely to recognise that the massacres exist as a reaction.
In turn, this recognition means that if you want to prevent future massacres, you need to address the conditions that created the reaction.

If you don’t do this, if you don’t try to understand the context and thus recognise that any solutions need to encompass this context, you’re basically accepting that there will be future massacres. And surely that is way worse.

Anyone with slightly more than a very basic understanding of the conflict knows what Gaza is and why it exists. There is absolutely no need to "recognise" it to prevent future massacres.

To prevent future massacres everyone needs to agree that rocketing music festivals then attacking the partygoers with grenades and automatic weapons, and murdering 250 kids is not a reasonable response to anything REGARDLESS of any perceived atrocities that preceded it.

 

[platinumsage]

I’d also note that your link is also documenting a reaction to colonisation, and what happens when the colonisers try to obliterate rather than acknowledge the knowledge of past atrocities, and pretend that the colonisation is just rather than recognise that it caused misery and displacement from homes.

None of the atrocities are inevitable responses to what went before, but responses willingly chosen by the participants. Saying the massacre is "due to the conditions in Gaza" is no different to saying a jealous man murdered his girlfriend "due to her infidelity".

You can acknowledge the background without excusing the participants, it's not hard.

 

[Spymaster]

It's a bit disingenuous to say that the rave/music festival attendees were children.

They look like children to me but if, in the face of this action, you want to argue that some aren't kids because they're over 18, knock yourself out.

 

[A380]

So it would seem to me Hamas /Iran have successfully learned several tactical innovations from the Ukrainians. But have completely failed to learn effective propaganda techniques, and I use that in it’s original meaning, from the Ukrainians.

If those 50 Hamas soldiers had mounted a full on death of glory raid against the nearby airfield most of the world would have either supported that or at least condemned it intellectually but not emotionally . Hunting young people down in a rave, many/most of whom will have been unarmed is an information war disaster.

It seems likely that similar groups of Hamas fighters will have taken on military outposts elsewhere in this incident. There will have been much bravery on both sides. But whatever else the Israeli government is, they are masters of propaganda (why else do they select new immigrants with national accents as their English language spokespeople) and this murderous attack in the woods will come to define this incident.

 

[Pickman's model]

Anyone with slightly more than a very basic understanding of the conflict knows what Gaza is and why it exists. There is absolutely no need to "recognise" it to prevent future massacres.

To prevent future massacres everyone needs to agree that rocketing music festivals then attacking the partygoers with grenades and automatic weapons, and murdering 250 kids is not a reasonable response to anything REGARDLESS of any attrocities that preceded it.

maybe to prevent future massacres the conditions which have produced round after round of wars and killings might be altered to bring peace to palestine. i mean, if you're really interested in the prevention of future massacres you'd surely really want to see a just settlement perhaps based on resolution 242.

 

[The39thStep]

It's well known that prisoners of war who escaped from Nazi prison camps went on rampages killing women and children, haven't you seen The Great Escape?

Prize for the first analogy regarding WW2

 

[kabbes]

To prevent future massacres everyone needs to agree that rocketing music festivals then attacking the partygoers with grenades and automatic weapons, and murdering 250 kids is not a reasonable response to anything REGARDLESS of any perceived atrocities that preceded it.

Alright then, professor. Let me know how that works out for you as a strategy.

 

[Spymaster]

Alright then, professor. Let me know how that works out for you as a strategy.

Well you have nothing better.

As I said to TC; half a start from here would be the the unconditional and unequivocal condemnation of the attack on the festival.

Will you join me in that?

 

[Aladdin]

Of course it did. But Israel has no interest in acknowledging and thus dealing with their own role in the ongoing oppression of the Palestinian populace , and how they thereby created a displaced and desperate people. And I do mean Israel here, not “Jews”.

Israel under Netanyahu.. you mean?

 

[Aladdin]

I'm sure if no one had wanted to wipe Jews off the map there wouldn't have been any reason for Gaza not to have been what you say in the first place. Everything that has led up to now has contributed to the current state of affairs, obviously.

The state of Israel was well on the cards before ww2

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Is that the best you can manage with ten hours to compose a response, doc? Still it shows some self-awareness, after all I only did what you did, so if it's pathetic from one of us.....

Ten hours? Do you really think I have nothing else to do? You aretruly pathetic

To respond to your original jibe, informing me fatuously I am not ‘them’, ie Palestinians. I have never said I was nor would I, hence your comment is a non sequitur.

Your refusal to engage with my substantive point: that Palestinians deserve a voice, truly says it all.

If its alright with you, indeed even its not, i will be busy today so not watching Urban constantly for any elegant riposte you may construct…

 

[Cloo]

People popping up on my social media with 'I stand with Israel' banners, to which my only reply is that I really wish I could stand with Israel. Every Jew who can't 'stand with Israel' wishes they could.

 

[A380]

People popping up on my social media with 'I stand with Israel' banners, to which my only reply is that I really wish I could stand with Israel. Every person who can't 'stand with Israel' wishes they could.

The above change is in solidarity not a dig BTW

 

[NoXion]

Israel under Netanyahu.. you mean?

I'm sure he's not the only Israeli leader to contribute to this mess.

 

[kabbes]

As I said to TC; half a start from here would be the the unconditional and unequivocal condemnation of the attack on the festival.

Will you join me in that?

Let it go forth that Kabbes condemns the murder of people. There, glad that we’ve fixed it. We have fixed it, right? Hamas must be changing their policy as we speak.

 

[Spymaster]

Let it go forth that Kabbes condemns the murder of people. There, glad that we’ve fixed it. We have fixed it, right? Hamas must be changing their policy as we speak.

Hah!

For all your highbrow posturing, you're no different to any of the other thick lefties who think Hamas' murder of kids needs to be contextualised.

You're as disgraceful as they are.

Professor.

 

[two sheds]

Hah!

For all your highbrow posturing, you're no different to any of the other thick lefties who think Hamas' murder of kids needs to be contextualised.

You're as disgraceful as they are.

Professor.

Hah!

For all your highbrow posturing, you're no different to any of the other thick righties who think Israel's murder of kids needs to be contextualised.

You're as disgraceful as they are.

Professor.

And yes I do condemn the murder of civilians that we've just seen.

 

[kabbes]

Hah!

For all your highbrow posturing, you're no different to any of the other thick lefties who think Hamas' murder of kids needs to be contextualised.

You're as disgraceful as they are.

Professor.

So you’re happy that your approach will achieve — and historically, demonstrably, has achieved — nothing? You’re willing to just accept that there will definitely be future massacres, just because it saves you from having to understand anything beyond “murder is bad”?

 

[Spymaster]

Hah!

For all your highbrow posturing, you're no different to any of the other thick righties who think Israel's murder of kids needs to be contextualised.

You're as disgraceful as they are.

Professor.

The difference being that I absolutely condemn the actions of the Israeli state and have no problem whatsoever acknowledging it.