Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[SpookyFrank]

The only acceptable endgame for Israel now is the complete eradication of Hamas and vice versa. Not really a basis for negotiations.

They don't want to eradicate Hamas. What would the psycho headbangers in the Israeli government do without Hamas. They want to eradicate the people of the Gaza strip.

 

[The39thStep]

Yeah but...that's just 'damage' not 'destruction'.

Bit of t-cut etc.

Wankers.

'But we would have done the same to the Divis Flats '

 

[cupid_stunt]

I see the US has carried out over night strikes on a base used by Iran's Revolutionary Guards, in Syria, claiming they are a response to a series of attacks on US and coalition troops in both Iraq and Syria.

The escalation is well and truly underway.

US strikes Syria bases used by Iran-linked groups

It follows a series of recent attacks on US bases in Iraq and Syria by Iranian-backed militia, officials say.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Knotted]

Tracey is a nasty hypocrite though. He's whitewashed atrocities of both Assad and Putin, claimed the Bucha massacre was fake. He belongs in the same bin as Glenn Greenwald, Max Bleumenthal, Ben Norton, Aaron Mate and all the other fake-left RT/Sputnik/Grayzone grifters.

Fair enough. Never heard of him tbh.

 

[krtek a houby]

I see the US has carried out over night strikes on a base used by Iran's Revolutionary Guards, in Syria, claiming they are a response to a series of attacks on US and coalition troops in both Iraq and Syria.

The escalation is well and truly underway.

US strikes Syria bases used by Iran-linked groups

It follows a series of recent attacks on US bases in Iraq and Syria by Iranian-backed militia, officials say.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eternal war

 

[nino_savatte]

Ooh interesting. Before my time. I was on bluelight. But so was he I presume. Massively zionist ex-IDF American? (Or living in USA). Same name without the 18. Prolific wanker. He made it here too? And lasted?

Not just a Zionist, but a Kahanist. He admitted to having been a member of Kach iirc.

 

[Idris2002]

Not just a Zionist, but a Kahanist. He admitted to having been a member of Kach iirc.

A member of the present Israeli political mainstream, then.

 

[The39thStep]

The enemy within

 

[nino_savatte]

A member of the present Israeli political mainstream, then.

Indeed. I think Itamar Ben Gvir has admitted to being a Kahanist. Kahanism itself has become a mainstream ideology in the last 20 years or so.

 

[Plumdaff]

The enemy within

View attachment 397233

We must be allowed to kill Israelis to avenge the killing of Israelis.

 

[ska invita]

Major clampdown on free speech in the US

Id like to read more about this...is there a link regarding what it means in terms of free speech clampdown? I have a feeling it is being misrepresented in that tweet, but hope im wrong

 

[Idris2002]

The enemy within

View attachment 397233

You'll have seen a lot of stuff about how the whole of Israel blames Netanyahu for the attacks, and how his disapproval rating is as high as 85%.

Well, we'll have Benjamin Netanyahu to kick around for quite a while yet. Calling it now: before this is over we will see a "Netanya-coup" in the state of Israel.

 

[MickiQ]

You may be right. But the complete eradication of Hamas will also mean the complete eradication of Gaza as a place to live any kind of normal life, probably mass murder of thousands of civilians, the displacement of god knows how many Palestinians to god knows where, probable renewed carnage in the West Bank, likely hostilities with Hezbollah in Lebanon, and much more. That would mean the end of any possibility of peace for years to come and the end of any two state solution. So Israel has to be encouraged to step back. So western governments have to start applying pressure and no longer give unconditional support for a supposed right of self defence.

And you're totally right, I think this is exactly what is going to happen over the next year or so. As well as your list I would add an upsurge in Islamic-related terrorism and an increase in anti-semitic and Islamophobic hate crimes throughout Western Europe and North America.
I don't think the two state solution was ever a goer myself more of a sop by the West and the US in particular to make the Palestinians think they had got something as a result of the Gulf Wars. Israeli has certainly never taken it seriously.
Only one Western government matters though, the rest are effectively powerless and are going to have to (behind the scenes) indulge in a lot of soul-searching and facing up to uncomfortable truths in the coming months. I have no idea how that will pan out in the years to come.
As for the one Western government that does matter, at the moment and for the foreseeable, it is not going to change it's position of unconditional support and that will make it very difficult for other Western ones to take a different position no matter how much it puts them at odds with their own population.
Maybe when Palestinian casualties are well into 5 or even 6 figures maybe things will change but not soon I think.

 

[ska invita]

The west and US especially love Saudi Arabia, cant see why they wouldn't back a full blown fascist Israel that shoots its own people dead for dissent

 

[two sheds]

UN general assembly calls for immediate truce – as it happened

United Nations resolution passes with 120 votes in favour of truce. This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

​

​

Israel-Hamas war live: Gaza facing ‘massive health hazard’ as water runs low and sewage overflowing onto streets, says UN​

Fuck

 

[cupid_stunt]

UN general assembly calls for immediate truce – as it happened

United Nations resolution passes with 120 votes in favour of truce. This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

​

Fuck

Direct link to that post.

Sadly, it was clear that this would happen, I simply can not understand anyone for refusing to condemn the Israeli government for creating this humanitarian disaster.

Also, from that post...

Earlier this week, Israel insisted it will not allow fuel in, arguing that Hamas had stolen fuel from the UN to use for military purposes.

Lazzarini insisted that the agency had a “solid monitoring mechanism” in place to ensure that aid is not diverted. “UNRWA does not and will not divert any humanitarian aid into the wrong hands.”

He denied that Hamas had stolen fuel from the UN, adding: “It pains me that humanitarian aid, a very basic right for people, is constantly questioned, while at the same time despair is livestreamed on our watch.”

Who to believe, Israel or the UN?

 

[The39thStep]

The ammunition's being passed and the lords been praised
But the wars on the televisions will never be explained
All the bankers gettin' sweaty beneath their white collars
As the pound in our pocket turns into a dollar
This is the 51st state of the U.S.A.

 

[cupid_stunt]

This interview with a former Israeli solider, that took part in the 2014 conflict, is well worth watching, he speaks so much common sense, if only his government could understand it.

The ex-Israel Defence Forces soldier added: "The only way to defeat the idea of violent resistance is to create an alternative. One our government [Israel] opposes. So, this government can't defeat Hamas."

 

[ska invita]

Defeating Hamas is one thing, utterly flattening everything from Gaza City north is another

 

[Pickman's model]

This interview with a former Israeli solider, that took part in the 2014 conflict, is well worth watching, he speaks so much common sense, if only his government could understand it.

you'd have thought with so many former soldiers in the cabinet one of them might have some vague knowledge of the limitations of war as a political tool

 

[ska invita]

one of them might have some vague knowledge of the limitations of war as a political tool

successfully achieving their aims so far

 

[Pickman's model]

successfully achieving their aims so far

not their stated aim tho

 

[RedRedRose]

Further to the discussion upthread about reliability of Palestinian death figures. Biden's remarks are extremely hurtful because they seem to obfuscate Palestinian suffering.

‘Appalling’: Why has Biden cast doubt on the Palestinian death count?

Rights advocates condemn the US president for denying Palestinian suffering ‘even in death’ during the Israel-Hamas war.

www.aljazeera.com

But less than 24 hours earlier, United States President Joe Biden cast doubt over the figures, saying that he has “no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using”.

“I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed,” Biden said on Wednesday.

Palestinian American activist Zeina Ashrawi Hutchison said Biden’s remarks seem to question Palestinians’ humanity “even in death”.

On the reliability, as noted by Al Jazeera,

critics were quick to point out that human rights experts, including at the United Nations, have long found the Palestinian Health Ministry’s data to be reliable.

Omar Shakir, the Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch (HRW), said the ministry’s data has often reflected the nonprofit’s own research.

Shakir said when HRW previously conducted its own investigations into past attacks on Palestinians, it did not find major discrepancies between its findings and the numbers provided by the health ministry.

“Human Rights Watch has been working in the occupied Palestinian territories for three decades. We’ve covered rounds of escalations and hostilities, and we’ve always found the numbers from the Ministry of Health to be generally reliable,” Shakir said.

 

[twistedAM]

The west and US especially love Saudi Arabia, cant see why they wouldn't back a full blown fascist Israel that shoots its own people dead for dissent

Maybe they're doing this to get a F1 Grand Prix and bid for the 2062 World Cup?

 

[cupid_stunt]

I've said before, with the number of 'living units' totally destroyed, most being apartment blocks, the reported death figures, which are roughly about 1 per unit destroyed, seem remarkably low, and that's without considering the number of units that have been damaged, which are around three times more than those destroyed.

I suspect there're well over 1,000 unaccounted bodies in the rubble of these buildings, as there's little being done to dig them out, as they don't have the people or equipment to do it on such a massive scale.

Of course, lives lost so far will pale into insignificance compared with what is coming down the line.

 

[belboid]

Further to the discussion upthread about reliability of Palestinian death figures. Biden's remarks are extremely hurtful because they seem to obfuscate Palestinian suffering.







On the reliability, as noted by Al Jazeera,

Decent but on the bbc rolling story about how WHO get their figures -

The World Health Organization (WHO) says more than 7,028 people have now been killed in Gaza and, as reported in my previous post, that 41% of them are children.

There have been questions about how the WHO gets these figures since its own ability to work inside Gaza is highly restricted - plus there are suggestions that Hamas, who run the health ministry in Gaza, may be exaggerating the numbers.

Today the WHO’s representative in its office for the West Bank and Gaza, Richard Peeperkorn, explained that the WHO, in any conflict, emergency, or disease outbreak, relies on the local health authorities to provide statistics.

He said the WHO had received a list of 6,747 names and registration numbers of those who had died, and an additional figure - 281 - of bodies which had yet to be identified. He also said there were indications that many more people had died, but could not be counted because they remained under the rubble.

In a sign of impatience with the frequent questioning about the reliability of figures that come from Hamas, Dr Peeperkorn said he found the discussion somewhat "cynical" and asked if views would change if the deaths were 1,000 less or 1,000 more.

He also explained that the WHO has, over the years, worked regularly with the authorities in Gaza to record births, deaths, and immunisations - and these figures had proved reliable.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Unironically one of the best takes I've heard from any British politician. Light years ahead of the vacillating drivel of the revisionist Starmer clique

 

[MickiQ]

They don't want to eradicate Hamas. What would the psycho headbangers in the Israeli government do without Hamas. They want to eradicate the people of the Gaza strip.

I think they have made use of Hamas as a foil in the past but they have outlived their usefulness and the headbangers, the pragmatics and even the liberals in the Knesset now want them gone and by gone I mean dead. I still don't think the Israeli actively want to exterminate the Gazans (some might) but clearly they are totally unbothered by how many of them they need to kill to get at Hamas.
Eradicate as is drive them out rather than just kill, almost certainly. I don't doubt there are many (perhaps even a majority) of the decision makers in the Knesset who would definitely support that as a solution. Drive the Gazans out into Egypt and the inhabitants of the West Bank into Jordan. The problem with that of course neither Jordan or Egypt is willing to take them.
Perhaps at some point the Israeli backed by the Americans will start bribing those governments to be more willing to accept them. Staying where they are has no long term future. Any kind of peaceful solution be it one or two state is probably dead forever now and staying where they are, their lives are just going to get ever more awful.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think they have made use of Hamas as a foil in the past but they have outlived their usefulness and the headbangers, the pragmatics and even the liberals in the Knesset now want them gone and by gone I mean dead. I still don't think the Israeli actively want to exterminate the Gazans (some might) but clearly they are totally unbothered by how many of them they need to kill to get at Hamas.
Eradicate as is drive them out rather than just kill, almost certainly. I don't doubt there are many (perhaps even a majority) of the decision makers in the Knesset who would definitely support that as a solution. Drive the Gazans out into Egypt and the inhabitants of the West Bank into Jordan. The problem with that of course neither Jordan or Egypt is willing to take them.
Perhaps at some point the Israeli backed by the Americans will start bribing those governments to be more willing to accept them. Staying where they are has no long term future. Any kind of peaceful solution be it one or two state is probably dead forever now and staying where they are, their lives are just going to get ever more awful.

does it really matter if the gazans are killed in droves by design or by carelessness? doesn't seem to me to make much difference - certainly won't to the palestinians whose lives will be dedicated to revenge after this little contretemps is all over

 

[Idris2002]

I think they have made use of Hamas as a foil in the past but they have outlived their usefulness and the headbangers, the pragmatics and even the liberals in the Knesset now want them gone and by gone I mean dead. I still don't think the Israeli actively want to exterminate the Gazans (some might) but clearly they are totally unbothered by how many of them they need to kill to get at Hamas.
Eradicate as is drive them out rather than just kill, almost certainly. I don't doubt there are many (perhaps even a majority) of the decision makers in the Knesset who would definitely support that as a solution. Drive the Gazans out into Egypt and the inhabitants of the West Bank into Jordan. The problem with that of course neither Jordan or Egypt is willing to take them.
Perhaps at some point the Israeli backed by the Americans will start bribing those governments to be more willing to accept them. Staying where they are has no long term future. Any kind of peaceful solution be it one or two state is probably dead forever now and staying where they are, their lives are just going to get ever more awful.

Part of the proposal for driving the Gazans into tents in the Sinai included a "sterile zone" along the Israel/Sinai border, i.e. a zone that would provide an extra layer of protection for the newly cleansed Israeli state. That indicates that they anticipate a security problem even after the glorious day in which the inferiors are driven from their homes.