Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'd go even simpler - can he recognise the palestinian lives have any value? As that's something lacking from his posts imo
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Of course the current war is horrible and grim, and although i’m an optimist about most things I don’t see any good outcomes. It would be great if the conflict stopped today but I just can’t see that happening. I’m not going to exclusively criticise Israel when both Hamas and Egypt also have it within their gift to bring huge relief to the people of Gaza. The surrender of Hamas would obviously bring greater short and long term benefits to Gazans than a cessation of hostilities from Israel that sees Gaza remaining under the control of a Hamas which will continue to attack Israel.
JimW
支那暗杀团
The bingtuan which manages vast swathes of Xinjiang is a sort of military settler programme though it's moved beyond that now in many ways.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
You didn't need to put "exclusively" there. As far as I've seen you are yet to criticise Israel in any meaningful way beyond saying they should have secured their borders rather than faff around in the West Bank.
Are Palestinian lives of equal value to Israeli ones?
Are Palestinian lives of equal value to Israeli ones?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Very happy to criticise lots of actions of the Israeli state with respect to Palestinians prior to 7th Oct. For the actions in the past couple of weeks i’m withholding judgement. Sorry about that.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Indeed. There's a wee bit of me that wants to cut PS a bit of slack, someone with Israeli sympathies, discussing something that begins with the 7th October (though I obviously wouldn't frame it so 'tightly' shall we say). It was horrific and so you don't feel minded to acknowledge pain on the other side. However even within the tight frame of events from the 7th onwards, even if you somehow neglect the history of occupation and ethnic cleansing, the rate of killing by Israel is several times higher, will get much worse and is being inflicted on a population already denuded of the basics. There comes a point where it shouldn't be that difficult to apply some basic moral judgements, wherever your politics or sympathies lie.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yes, there's a moment of sunshine outside - literal, not metaphoric unfortunately - I might explore that.He's outright doing Hamas: Judgment, Knesset: No Judgment – so it seems it is that difficult if you're platinumsage.
Anyhoo I've wasted enough time on him already today so I'll bow out to do some work I think. Later all
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Yes of course. Wars aren't run by some neutral judge with a pair of scales weighing up bodies. More Russian than Ukrainian troops have died but it doesn't mean Russian people are worth less.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
I can’t even begin to understand the mindset of somebody who can look at this:
And say “I’m reserving judgment on whether the Israelis have done anything wrong.” It’s just inhuman.They're nearly half way towards reducing Gaza to rubble.
Numbers from the UN.
By the time they're done, 10s of thousands of people will be dead. There will then be 2 million people left with nowhere to live in Gaza and nowhere else to go.
RedRedRose
Well-Known Member
I found this useful. Ezra Klein is a liberal-leftist writing for the NYT and discusses the prospects of peace in the region with two other journalists. Quite a bit of background about Hamas; what they were trying achieve with the massacre; how previous peace talks broke down etc. Very critical of the right-wing turn Israel made in recent years and hope this is their endpoint.
Highlights a couple of green shoots, including the Standing Together, who were mentioned up thread.
mojo pixy
interesting times
But why?
Very interesting interview today on BBC Radio 4 with a former member of the IDF who went into Gaza in 2014. At the time he thought he saw some logic in what they were doing. He now has a very different view. Interview starts at around 21.30 minutes.
www.bbc.co.uk
World at One - 25/10/2023 - BBC Sounds
Forty-five minutes of news, analysis and comment.
www.bbc.co.uk
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Good article on Al Jazeera about the anger towards the West for its failure to condemn Israel. This is a diplomatic disaster whose effects will ripple out for decades to come.
Outrage at US, Israel’s European allies grows since Gaza hospital blast
This isn't Islamists talking. These are secularists and pro-democracy activists who oppose autocracy and Islamism in their own countries. They've been fucked over.
Outrage at US, Israel’s European allies grows since Gaza hospital blast
This isn't Islamists talking. These are secularists and pro-democracy activists who oppose autocracy and Islamism in their own countries. They've been fucked over.
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
What do you think Egypt could be doing?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You asked a while back what alternatives posters have considering they ( and I'm one them ) object to bombing of Gaza.
Enough with the warlords. There is another way
Israel’s addictive militarism has convinced us the next dose of the drug will be the one that fixes things forever. An alternative exists.
www.972mag.com
I've just read this by an Israeli Jew. In short it saying the military and increasing militarism of Israeli society ( armed settlers in West Bank) hasn't brought peace and security to the people of Israel.
What she argues for is demilitarising the conflict. I see posted up massive air transport loads of weapons coming from US.
To remove the power of the men with the guns Israel should call a ceasefire, negotiate prisoner/ hostage swap.
Then start the process of stopping settlers on West Bank.
I need to give it a re read but de escalating the use of military and addressing the needs of Palestinian civilians both now as a humanitarian crisis and long term to deal with the roots of the violence. Particularly in West Bank is the only way forward that will undercut the cycle of violence.
I'm not having a go at you here. This subject is to serious for that
I think the argument she makes for a different framing of the conflict and how to resolve it. Without weapons/ reliance on military as security makes sense
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Circassians?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
For Druze, it's men only but it's still compulsory. Sounds like a bonus, not being conscripted, but advancement in Israeli society is intimately connected to the military if you want a decent job, housing, etc.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
You asked a while back what alternatives posters have considering they ( and I'm one them ) object to bombing of Gaza.
Enough with the warlords. There is another way
Israel’s addictive militarism has convinced us the next dose of the drug will be the one that fixes things forever. An alternative exists.
I've just read this by an Israeli Jew. In short it saying the military and increasing militarism of Israeli society ( armed settlers in West Bank) hasn't brought peace and security to the people of Israel.
What she argues for is demilitarising the conflict. I see posted up massive air transport loads of weapons coming from US.
To remove the power of the men with the guns Israel should call a ceasefire, negotiate prisoner/ hostage swap.
Then start the process of stopping settlers on West Bank.
I need to give it a re read but de escalating the use of military and addressing the needs of Palestinian civilians both now as a humanitarian crisis and long term to deal with the roots of the violence. Particularly in West Bank is the only way forward that will undercut the cycle of violence.
I'm not having a go at you here. This subject is to serious for that
I think the argument she makes for a different framing of the conflict and how to resolve it. Without weapons/ reliance on military as security makes sense
I can see how someone can argue this approach is something they ought to have got done and dusted by 6th October, maybe if they had, the attacks wouldn't have happened. I can also see the argument that this is something they will have to ultimately do when the current conflict has worked its course.
However I can't see how it can be realistically achieved at the current time. The author would need to do a great deal of convincing of fellow Israelis to make this a possibility in the current climate. I think a widespread appetite for such an approach could only arise after Hamas has been eliminated or the conflict taken some other drastic course.
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Opening the border would help.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
to drive out the rest of the local population. Which is exactly what the far-right Israeli state desires. Hardly a surprise you do too.
Everyone knows this.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Egypt takes in 2 million refugees, Israel annexes Gaza. Job done?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
He said without giving the matter any thought https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/24/...l-gaza-hamas-afraid-omari-schenker/index.html
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The other 300,000 presumably dead
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
So, you support Israel's desire to drive out the Palestinians, and ethnically cleanse Gaza?
You really are a charmer.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Great that you want the Egyptian stake to make this decision on behalf of the Palestinians of Gaza.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
No, you're the shit head for wanting Egypt to lock up the residents of Gaza for their own good.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Weird that Egypt can have legitimate security concerns about letting Palestinians cross the border, but Israel can't.
Similar threads
