Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[TopCat]

It would be nice, but such threads tend to be ignored. For example “The long term causes of war in Ukraine” thread has 29 posts in 18 months compared to 27,000 for the main thread of mostly one-liners.

I’d start such a thread myself but would no doubt be accused of having ulterior motives by planetgeli again.

The similarities in the two threads are not constant. There was though on both shouty people throwing shit at anyone not vocalising full support. Putin apologists, hamas apologists.

 

[Gramsci]

One of things the historian Ilan Pappe says is that settler colonialism is not new. Its that Zionism did it late in the day historically.

South America , whilst far from perfect, grapple with their past as settler colonial -Indigenous people in some of them have become political leaders of their countries - Morales being one. Secondly South America is also built on slavery. Brazil for example. These people were forced migrants. I suppose what Im saying is that these societies are hybrid cultures. Culture and politics is contested.

What I see in Israel is that Zionism as a political grounding for that society cannot encompass any basis where a mixing of Arab and European Jewish life can mix. Its a static political project. Cannot adapt or change.

I actually find the two state solution negative. It did not work in 1948. It presupposes that people of different backgrounds cannot live side by side.

 

[TopCat]

One of things the historian Ilan Pappe says is that settler colonialism is not new. Its that Zionism did it late in the day historically.

South America , whilst far from perfect, grapple with their past as settler colonial -Indigenous people in some of them have become political leaders of their countries - Morales being one. Secondly South America is also built on slavery. Brazil for example. These people were forced migrants. I suppose what Im saying is that these societies are hybrid cultures. Culture and politics is contested.

What I see in Israel is that Zionism as a political grounding for that society cannot encompass any basis where a mixing of Arab and European Jewish life can mix. Its a static political project. Cannot adapt or change.

I actually find the two state solution negative. It did not work in 1948. It presupposes that people of different backgrounds cannot live side by side.

The attacks on the UN tonight are something. Heated.

 

[PTK]

This BBC documentary looks of interest. It is about the settlers on the West Bank.

Louis Theroux Specials - Ultra Zionists

Louis Theroux spends time with ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers, who consider it their religious and political obligation to populate some of the sensitive areas of the West Bank.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is well worth watching.

 

[Humberto]

It certainly will. There's no justification for bombing.

Im in agreement with Knotted on this. Given Jewish history - I often see references to Israel of the kind of look at what they are doing its like the Nazis. Not comfortable with it.

As Knotted also said it ends up being a distraction.

I also think its not accurate. Reading Ilan Pappes book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. he compare the ethnic cleansing war crimes in ex Yugoslavia with what happened in 1948. Looks at the evidence and legal definitions and comes to convincing conclusion what happened in 1948 constitutes ethnic cleansing. It was not just an unfortunate excess due to the confusion of ending the mandate.

Rashid Khalidi puts the case, after reading of early Zionists- that removal of Palestinian population to make way for Jews was integral part of Zionism and still is.

So whilst Im not keen of referring to what is happening as genocide I would , after reading the history, say that Zionism is a racist political project. Given that the behavior of the present elected Israeli politicians and what they have been saying about Palestinians in general ( monsters/ human animals) is no surprise. This is Zionism.

It was not that there was unfortunate level of violence that led to creation of State of Israel. The State of Israel has been an ongoing racist project. That is not blaming those born there. Not all of whom are happy about this and are trying to seek a peaceful solution. Ilan Pappe for one. Also the Jewish Israelis I referred to in recent posts.

Its the problem I have know after reading some of the history with IHRA definition and example which could arguably be used to say what Ive said above is anti semitic.

Its also not saying that this is unique to Jews. As the British Jewish Historian Tony Judt said Zionism came out of the 19c European growth in Nationalism. Which had its pros and cons.

Racism is not unique to the Zionist project. British empire treated its colonial subjects in racist fashion.

What is reprehensible is , as is happening now , is International community leaders are giving the hard line Zionist government blank cheque to do what they want.

The British Empire was an entirely racist and murderous project. From the pirates of the Spanish main who were given orders, to the reformation project of destroying Catholicism previously. Psychopathic megalomaniac Hitler saw it as an inspiration, how tens of thousands of British soldiers could dominate 10s millions of Indians. How did they? By intimidation, unmerciful large scale violence and moral holier than thou presumption of spreading civilisation. Massive state industrial militarism.

Racism itself, followed. Racial classification: 'traits', 'faults'. Skull shapes, temperments. (all nonsense)

Did the British working class benefit? No. They were brainwashed which is a different thing. They join the army and fight in South Africa or mutilate people in Kenya. These rulers literally live in our towns. Too many memories of Little Ease or thumb screws or the rack or Newgate or being broken on the wheel.

 

[spring-peeper]

in my view yes however my question was more related to now rather than then

not really that much in the past - most first nations in most "settled" countries are still being treated like shit.

/derail

 

[Larry O'Hara]

A lot of people don’t know this. Tony Blair reportedly did not know of the UK /US orchestrated coup in Iran in the 60’s, this at the time of attacking Iraq.

To be fair he might have known of the 1953 one

 

[Raheem]

I actually find the two state solution negative. It did not work in 1948. It presupposes that people of different backgrounds cannot live side by side.

But, in 2023, a solution of any kind cannot wait for people to feel they can live side by side.

 

[TopCat]

To be fair he might have known of the 1953 one

It’s late. Sorry. I would have checked before invading

 

[PTK]

One of things the historian Ilan Pappe says is that settler colonialism is not new. Its that Zionism did it late in the day historically.

South America , whilst far from perfect, grapple with their past as settler colonial -Indigenous people in some of them have become political leaders of their countries - Morales being one. Secondly South America is also built on slavery. Brazil for example. These people were forced migrants. I suppose what Im saying is that these societies are hybrid cultures. Culture and politics is contested.

What I see in Israel is that Zionism as a political grounding for that society cannot encompass any basis where a mixing of Arab and European Jewish life can mix. Its a static political project. Cannot adapt or change.

I actually find the two state solution negative. It did not work in 1948. It presupposes that people of different backgrounds cannot live side by side.

Partition was a "solution" in Ireland, India, and Palestine, all three of which lived in peace thereafter.

 

[Humberto]

Then there's the give the baby's opium in a 50/50 cos the mum has to work a 36 hour shift. Or Not being nourished enough to form a battalian because an abled bodied soldier in the army is not happening. Too short and broken. That is also a great part of Marx.

 

[Rimbaud]

Which other countries have 'settlers' ( not had )

This is an interesting question - I think almost all nation states have or had a settler-colonial dynamic to some extent.

Obviously the entirety of the Americas, Australia, but also a lot of places in Europe and Asia. In the Nordic countries there is a history of maltreatment of the indigenous Sami, in Taiwan the indigenous peoples (kind of like Pacific Islanders in appearance) were driven into the mountainous interior by Han and Hakka settlers from China around the same time that the US was being settled. And of course Tibet and Xinjiang and settler colonial societies. Even in the UK, that speakers of Celtic languages are found only in the most remote areas of the far west (North Wales, Hebrides, West of Ireland) says something about a similar dynamic to the indigenous people of Taiwan being driven to the mountains. I'm sure you can find similar dynamics in most countries.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

He's not only a weasel, he's also an idiot.

He certainly is. Nearly 20% of his electorate in Holborn St Pancras are Muslim. A fair number of those are Tories, but he's still probably thrown away around 10,000 of his majority in a matter of days. There were already a lot of Muslim constituents ticked off with him for consistently ignoring them, now an awful lot of them see him as Islamophobic. Mind you, since pretty much none of them are likely to have dobbed him a five figure donation or own a national newspaper he probably hasn't noticed their existence.

 

[platinumsage]

Should the RAF have demolished the Divis Flats in Belfast on the grounds that a number of members of the IRA lived there?

If the IRA stormed into Liverpool one morning and killed, raped and tortured (checks notes) 7000 people, and the perpetrators fled to the Divis Flats in Belfast and started launching rocket attacks from there to the west coast of Britain then yes, the RAF should have bombed the flats after warning the civilian population to evacuate. Hope this answer helps!

 

[brogdale]

If the IRA stormed into Liverpool one morning and killed, raped and tortured (checks notes) 7000 people, and the perpetrators fled to the Divis Flats in Belfast and started launching rocket attacks from there to the west coast of Britain then yes, the RAF should have bombed the flats after warning the civilian population to evacuate. Hope this answer helps!

Or, if the ridiculous analogy were to be more accurately presented, told the civilian population to leave Belfast and move to the “safe haven” of the South of Down/Newry and then bombed them there.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tangental question. Do people use four brackets now instead of three, after all that 4chan crap?

No

 

[Ax^]

If the IRA stormed into Liverpool one morning and killed, raped and tortured (checks notes) 7000 people, and the perpetrators fled to the Divis Flats in Belfast and started launching rocket attacks from there to the west coast of Britain then yes, the RAF should have bombed the flats after warning the civilian population to evacuate. Hope this answer helps!

if you want to look at the troubles look at it from the prospective that blood shed ultimately did not lead to victory for either side..

you complete and utter plank

 

[cupid_stunt]

Every morning the news is getting worst, seeing footage on Sky of a hospital in Gaza city is heart breaking, according to the World Health Organisation it currently has a bed occupancy of around 150%, and that is only getting worst, medical staff are struggling to keep up with the number of patients arriving, many being left untreated on the floors. They are running out of everything from simple dressings to complex burn dressings, from drugs to fuel for the generators, and according to one doctor it is likely to cease to function within a matter of days, as so many other hospitals have already.

Meanwhile the UN is running out of fuel, so distributing aid is likely to grind to a halt tonight.

As the death toll in Gaza spirals, and fuel supplies dwindle, the number of facilities able to deal with casualties is shrinking. More than half of primary health care facilities, and roughly 1 of every 3 hospitals, have stopped functioning, the World Health Organization said.

Overwhelmed hospital staff struggled to triage cases as constant waves of wounded were brought in. The Health Ministry said many wounded are laid on the ground without even simple medical intervention and others wait for days for surgeries because there are so many critical cases.

While Israel has allowed a small number of trucks filled with aid to enter, it has barred deliveries of fuel to Gaza to keep it out of Hamas’ hands. The U.N. said its operation distributing aid will halt Wednesday evening if it does not receive fuel.

And, despite ordering people to head south, Israel continues to bomb the south.

Across central and south Gaza, where Israel told civilians to take shelter, there were multiple scenes of rescuers pulling the dead and wounded out of large piles of rubble from collapsed buildings. Graphic photos and video shot by the AP showed rescuers unearthing bodies of children from multiple ruins.

A father knelt on the floor of the Al-Aqsa Hospital in Deir Al-Balah next to the bodies of three dead children cocooned in bloodied sheets. Later at the nearby morgue, workers prayed over 24 dead wrapped in body bags, several of them the size of small children.

Buildings that collapsed on residents killed dozens at a time in several cases, witnesses said. Two families lost a total 47 members in a leveled home in Rafah, the Health Ministry said.

A strike on a four-story building in Khan Younis killed at least 32 people, including 13 members of the Saqallah family, said Ammar al-Butta, a relative who survived the airstrike. He said there were about 100 people sheltering in the building, including many who had evacuated from Gaza City.

“We thought that our area would be safe,” he said.

* Quotes from AP.

None of this news has come just from Hamas, it's what the World Health Organisation and UN are saying, backed-up by independent reporters on the ground, from many different news organisations, including AP and Sky.

Let's face it, you have to be a proper platinum plonker to see this as being O.K., and not in fact absolutely barbaric.

 

[brogdale]

And, despite ordering people to head south, Israel continues to bomb the south.

The war crime upon war crime.

 

[_Russ_]

If the IRA stormed into Liverpool one morning and killed, raped and tortured (checks notes) 7000 people, and the perpetrators fled to the Divis Flats in Belfast and started launching rocket attacks from there to the west coast of Britain then yes, the RAF should have bombed the flats after warning the civilian population to evacuate. Hope this answer helps!

Thank fuck you had no say in the matter

 

[brogdale]

Hope this answer helps!

if any further confirmation were needed; it really does

 

[_Russ_]

Inventing scenarios that despite including real people and groups actually never happened, in order to illustrate an extreme view is a blatant indicator of Loonie-ism imo

 

[The39thStep]

This is an interesting question - I think almost all nation states have or had a settler-colonial dynamic to some extent.

Obviously the entirety of the Americas, Australia, but also a lot of places in Europe and Asia. In the Nordic countries there is a history of maltreatment of the indigenous Sami, in Taiwan the indigenous peoples (kind of like Pacific Islanders in appearance) were driven into the mountainous interior by Han and Hakka settlers from China around the same time that the US was being settled. And of course Tibet and Xinjiang and settler colonial societies. Even in the UK, that speakers of Celtic languages are found only in the most remote areas of the far west (North Wales, Hebrides, West of Ireland) says something about a similar dynamic to the indigenous people of Taiwan being driven to the mountains. I'm sure you can find similar dynamics in most countries.

I meant have as In now, the 21st century.

 

[mojo pixy]

If the IRA stormed into Liverpool one morning and killed, raped and tortured (checks notes) 7000 people, and the perpetrators fled to the Divis Flats in Belfast and started launching rocket attacks from there to the west coast of Britain then yes, the RAF should have bombed the flats after warning the civilian population to evacuate. Hope this answer helps!

To run with this crazy analogy .. the USA would no way have allowed the UK to bomb Ireland like that. There would have been high-level diplomacy, presidential speeches calling for restraint, and very likely an arms embargo. It's a shame the Palestinians don't have the same leverage with the US establishment as the Irish do, or as the Israelis do.

 

[Cid]

If the IRA stormed into Liverpool one morning and killed, raped and tortured (checks notes) 7000 people, and the perpetrators fled to the Divis Flats in Belfast and started launching rocket attacks from there to the west coast of Britain then yes, the RAF should have bombed the flats after warning the civilian population to evacuate. Hope this answer helps!

Note that for your shitty analogy you've scaled the number of victims, but conveniently brushed over that for the whole population movement thing. Because that would equate to the forced movement of around half the population of the island of Ireland. And it's not the Devis flats, it's basically the entire urban area. Of both north and south.

Bah, probably shouldn't have humoured that daft shit. Moving on.

 

[Pickman's model]

If the IRA stormed into Liverpool one morning and killed, raped and tortured (checks notes) 7000 people, and the perpetrators fled to the Divis Flats in Belfast and started launching rocket attacks from there to the west coast of Britain then yes, the RAF should have bombed the flats after warning the civilian population to evacuate. Hope this answer helps!

So you think the Shankill should have been evacuated too. Interesting.

 

[platinumsage]

Note that for your shitty analogy you've scaled the number of victims, but conveniently brushed over that for the whole population movement thing.

Inventing scenarios that despite including real people and groups actually never happened, in order to illustrate an extreme view is a blatant indicator of Loonie-ism imo

It's not my shitty analogy, I was asked a question.

I'm not going to expand on it further because, despite apparently being execrable, each of my posts attracts at least six replies all saying the same thing.

 

[kabbes]

“Despite”? Surely, it is the execrable posts that are the most likely to attract a robust response. Why would it be “despite”?

 

[CNT36]

It's not my shitty analogy, I was asked a question.

I'm not going to expand on it further because, despite apparently being execrable, each of my posts attracts at least six replies all saying the same thing.

Piers Morgan. Fiver.

 

[brogdale]

It's not my shitty analogy, I was asked a question.

I'm not going to expand on it further because, despite apparently being execrable, each of my posts attracts at least six replies all saying the same thing.

The real victim in all of this