Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[8ball]

Nope, if anything he was British

British in the Saint George sense?

 

[agricola]

British in the Saint George sense?

No, in the "of the inhabitants of Britain" sense. Tacitus did give him a speech which thinks of Britain as a whole:

"Whenever I consider the origin of this war and the necessities of our position, I have a sure confidence that this day, and this union of yours, will be the beginning of freedom to the whole of Britain. To all of us slavery is a thing unknown; there are no lands beyond us, and even the sea is not safe, menaced as we are by a Roman fleet. And thus in war and battle, in which the brave find glory, even the coward will find safety. Former contests, in which, with varying fortune, the Romans were resisted, still left in us a last hope of succour, inasmuch as being the most renowned nation of Britain, dwelling in the very heart of the country, and out of sight of the shores of the conquered, we could keep even our eyes unpolluted by the contagion of slavery. To us who dwell on the uttermost confines of the earth and of freedom, this remote sanctuary of Britain's glory has up to this time been a defence. Now, however, the furthest limits of Britain are thrown open, and the unknown always passes for the marvellous. But there are no tribes beyond us, nothing indeed but waves and rocks, and the yet more terrible Romans, from whose oppression escape is vainly sought by obedience and submission. Robbers of the world, having by their universal plunder exhausted the land, they rifle the deep. If the enemy be rich, they are rapacious; if he be poor, they lust for dominion; neither the east nor the west has been able to satisfy them. Alone among men they covet with equal eagerness poverty and riches. To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a solitude and call it peace (ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant).

"Nature has willed that every man's children and kindred should be his dearest objects. Yet these are torn from us by conscriptions to be slaves elsewhere. Our wives and our sisters, even though they may escape violation from the enemy, are dishonoured under the names of friendship and hospitality. Our goods and fortunes they collect for their tribute, our harvests for their granaries. Our very hands and bodies, under the lash and in the midst of insult, are worn down by the toil of clearing forests and morasses. Creatures born to slavery are sold once and for all, and are, moreover, fed by their masters; but Britain is daily purchasing, is daily feeding, her own enslaved people. And as in a household the last comer among the slaves is always the butt of his companions, so we in a world long used to slavery, as the newest and most contemptible, are marked out for destruction. We have neither fruitful plains, nor mines, nor harbours, for the working of which we may be spared. Valour, too, and high spirit in subjects, are offensive to rulers; besides, remoteness and seclusion, while they give safety, provoke suspicion. Since then you cannot hope for quarter, take courage, I beseech you, whether it be safety or renown that you hold most precious. Under a woman's leadership the Brigantes were able to burn a colony, to storm a camp, and had not success ended in supineness, might have thrown off the yoke. Let us, then, a fresh and unconquered people, never likely to abuse our freedom, show forthwith at the very first onset what heroes Caledonia has in reserve.

"Do you suppose that the Romans will be as brave in war as they are licentious in peace? To our strifes and discords they owe their fame, and they turn the errors of an enemy to the renown of their own army, an army which, composed as it is of every variety of nations, is held together by success and will be broken up by disaster. These Gauls and Germans, and, I blush to say, these Britons, who, though they lend their lives to support a stranger's rule, have been its enemies longer than its subjects, you cannot imagine to be bound by fidelity and affection. Fear and terror there certainly are, feeble bonds of attachment; remove them, and those who have ceased to fear will begin to hate. All the incentives to victory are on our side. The Romans have no wives to kindle their courage; no parents to taunt them with flight, man have either no country or one far away. Few in number, dismayed by their ignorance, looking around upon a sky, a sea, and forests which are all unfamiliar to them; hemmed in, as it were, and enmeshed, the Gods have delivered them into our hands. Be not frightened by the idle display, by the glitter of gold and of silver, which can neither protect nor wound. In the very ranks of the enemy we shall find our own forces. Britons will acknowledge their own cause; Gauls will remember past freedom; the other Germans will abandon them, as but lately did the Usipii. Behind them there is nothing to dread. The forts are ungarrisoned; the colonies in the hands of aged men; what with disloyal subjects and oppressive rulers, the towns are ill-affected and rife with discord. On the one side you have a general and an army; on the other, tribute, the mines, and all the other penalties of an enslaved people. Whether you endure these for ever, or instantly avenge them, this field is to decide. Think, therefore, as you advance to battle, at once of your ancestors and of your posterity."

 

[cupid_stunt]

Being considered right-wing for taking positions that really aren't, reinforces my opinion that, in the company of fucking loons, it's a label to cherish.

This was my very first post on this thread, most of it still stands, but as others have withdrawn/back-peddled on posts they have made, I want it noted that I withdraw the first few words in my post, as spy has clearly fallen back into his 'cunty Si' mode, a moniker that his own wife introduced to urban.

I don't think Spy's on a wind-up here, at least I hope he isn't, I hope he's just so shocked about the horrific Hamas attacks, that he hasn't probably thought about what is or isn't a reasonable response from Israel.

"Spy said - How about not making things worse by raping and abducting children to deliberately make things worse as a political strategy?"

I can understand why Hamas has chosen to take attention at this time, as Israel has been pushing their luck far too much in recent years, but I totally agree the nature of their actions have been horrific, and was clearly going to make things so much worst, because Israel always responds in a disproportionate manner, and I am convinced it'll result in a lot of people across the world questioning their support for the Palestinian cause.

But, unless you have taken a massive right turn in recent years, which I don't think you have, let me remind you about the first time we met IRL back in 2009, it was when both of us, together with some other urbs, joined a massive march in London in support for Gaza and Palestinian people, because of Israel's disproportionate actions at the time.

So, what's changed?

Think about it, do you seriously feel that stopping the supply of food, electric and water to 2.3 million people, that are mainly innocent victims in all this, is a proportionate response to Hamas' horrific attacks, that have killed a few hundred in Israel, because it bloody well isn't, it's illegal, immoral and indefensible.

The whole situation is so bloody depressing, as if the shit show between Hamas and the Israeli state isn't going to be bad enough, I suspect there'll be a massive uptick in anti-semitic attacks across much of the world too.

 

[PTK]

This BBC documentary looks of interest. It is about the settlers on the West Bank.

Louis Theroux Specials - Ultra Zionists

Louis Theroux spends time with ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers, who consider it their religious and political obligation to populate some of the sensitive areas of the West Bank.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Spymaster]

Nope, if anything he was British

Caledonian would have done but would've required acknowledgement that, at the time your namesake gave Calcagus a good kicking, the Romans didn't consider all of Scotland to be Caledonia.

 

[teqniq]

Obviously don't like the truth, no matter how carefully worded:

Israel calls on UN chief to resign after call for ceasefire with Hamas

Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations called on Secretary-General Antonio Guterres to resign on Tuesday after he gave a speech calling for a cease-fire in the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. “The UN Secretary-General, who shows understanding for the campaign of mass murder of children...

news.yahoo.com

 

[donkyboy]

Released Israeli hostage shakes her captor's hand

Human rights activist Yocheved Lifschitz said 'shalom', meaning 'peace', to Hamas captor as she left.

www.bbc.co.uk

Handshake with Hamas

 

[Gramsci]

"Seventy-five MPs have now signed Richard Burgon’s EDM calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. Nearly half of Labour’s backbenchers have endorsed the call, including many not on the left of the Party, including Stephen Timms, Liam Byrne, Tony Lloyd, Mohammad Yasin, Rupa Huq, Sarah Champion, Debbie Abrahams and Jon Cruddas."

Gaza: Pressure intensifies for a ceasefire

Seventy-five MPs have now signed Richard Burgon’s EDM calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. Nearly half of Labour’s backbenchers have endorsed the call, including many not on the left of the Party, incl…

labourhub.org.uk

Starmer does not appear to be particularly bothered by the human rights implications of his statements on Gaza, but he might be worried about the negative impact on the UK Muslim vote, which Labour all too often takes for granted. His advisors organised a photo opportunity for him at the South Wales Islamic Centre. The local imam was evidently unaware that the visit was to be exploited for propaganda and public relations purposes and was upset that he had been used in this cynical way, particularly in light of Starmer’s earlier remarks in support of Israel’s tactics.

From the article. Been reading Starmer publicity advisors ham fisted attempt at mending fences with the Muslim community.

It was this tweet:



The bit were he start the tweet saying this. As some have said why did he go to a Muslim centre in Wales to ask for hostages to be released. Is he under the idea that all Muslims are in Hamas. What an idiot.

I was grateful to hear from the Muslim community of the South Wales Islamic Centre.
I repeated our calls for all hostages to be released

 

[Gramsci]

Swawkbox on this:

War-crime supporter Starmer’s cynical mosque stunt condemned by mosque imam

I didn’t invite him or even know who he was, says disgusted imam of South Wales Islamic Centre after outrage over Starmer photo stunt Keir Starmer’s attempt to mosque-wash his support f…

skwawkbox.org

 

[gosub]

do you know that bit about if you don't understand the past you won't understand the present?

Well i

 

[Bingoman]

Israel rejects calls for ceasefire at major UN meeting and vows to destroy Hamas | BreakingNews.ie

The UN chief had earlier called for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire to deliver desperately needed food, water, medicine and fuel.

www.breakingnews.ie

 

[Gramsci]

Protecting civilians in Gaza and Israel​

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/61430

I see the the six sponsors are all members of the Socialist Campaign Group.

Hated by Starmer who would really like to see the back of the lot of them. Hes got rid of Corbyn. Im sure if he could find a reason this lot would be sent packing as well.

Its in situations like this that the left of the party shows it has a role to play in mainstream democratic politics.

With Starmer as these MPs retire or leave he and his supporters will make damn sure people like this will never become MPs

 

[Ax^]

just remember everyone we all horribly antisemitic for thinking Israel should call a ceasefire to stop the escalating blood shed

the left should be ashamed of itself

 

[Pickman's model]

Well i

One of your most coherent posts

 

[Wilf]

From the article. Been reading Starmer publicity advisors ham fisted attempt at mending fences with the Muslim community.

It was this tweet:



The bit were he start the tweet saying this. As some have said why did he go to a Muslim centre in Wales to ask for hostages to be released. Is he under the idea that all Muslims are in Hamas. What an idiot.

He's not only a weasel, he's also an idiot.

 

[Pickman's model]

He's not only a weasel, he's also an idiot.

((((Weasels))))

 

[twistedAM]

((((Weasels))))

Tangental question. Do people use four brackets now instead of three, after all that 4chan crap?

 

[Gramsci]

He's not only a weasel, he's also an idiot.

One the reasons the Imam of the mosque was upset was that those present from the Mosque were questioning Starmer on what he had been saying recently about the recent violence. Including bombing of Gaza by Israel.

But one of the things about the way the tweet was made it looked like they just has a nice chat and agreed with Starmer and his views on what to do.

The tweet was misleading of the views of the people from the mosque.

The mosque started getting phone calls asking why they appeared to be on such good terms with Starmer.

So this photo opp for Starmer had real world unpleasant effects on those in the photo.

As what is happening is so contentious in this country Starmer media advisors should have taken this into account.

To add

I think they really believe that Starmer position is the reasonable non loony left middle ground centrist Dad one.

And anyone who does not agree with it is not part of the body politic so to speak.

Trouble is this is not working.

 

[Wilf]

One the reasons the Imam of the mosque was upset was that those present from the Mosque were questioning Starmer on what he had been saying recently about the recent violence. Including bombing of Gaza by Israel.

But one of the things about the way the tweet was made it looked like they just has a nice chat and agreed with Starmer and his views on what to do.

The tweet was misleading of the views of the people from the mosque.

The mosque started getting phone calls asking why they appeared to be on such good terms with Starmer.

So this photo opp for Starmer had real world unpleasant effects on those in the photo.

It's not just that he's got the wrong position on this, he's utterly ham fisted at politics as a craft.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I was wondering what em with the protest movement in Israel, looks like BN won’t survive in the longer term…

Israel’s massive democracy movement is ready for war — The Washington Post

Israel’s protest movement has repurposed its vast networks and organizational might to provide aid, answers and weapons to a traumatized nation.

apple.news

 

[Kid_Eternity]

See also this.

Poll: 80% of Israelis say Netanyahu must take public responsibility for Oct. 7 failures

PM still hasn't said publicly that he will shoulder blame; 69% of Likud voters think he should; Yesh Atid MK criticizes leader Lapid, says party needs to join emergency government

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[The39thStep]

Which other countries have 'settlers' ( not had )

 

[spring-peeper]

Which other countries have 'settlers' ( not had )

Would landing in America and attempting to wipe-out the original populations make the Europeans the settlers?

 

[Gramsci]

It's not just that he's got the wrong position on this, he's utterly ham fisted at politics as a craft.

Yes I agree. He's had an easy ride so far.

Now he and supporters have got the party under tight control they can no longer go look we are busy dealing with stain of anti semitism etc. They thought the had eliminated the left of the party. But they have just popped up to put in a motion to Parliament to support a ceasefire.

And its getting support from back benches.

If I was Starmer Id be a little bit worried.

Ceasefire is now longer something like a loony left fundamentalist advocates. Its getting to the point where centrist Dad supports it.

It is now coming across that the right are now the loonies. De facto supporting a hard right Isreali government. Who have not only no intention of talks about peace (see response to head of UN) but are still going forward with pushing Palestinians out of West Bank and replacing them with settlers. And will bomb Gaza until they feel its ok to send in actual troops. I now agree with other some other posters that they did see this as opportunity to either kill civilians or make them refugees in Egypt. Leaving the land of Gaza for a greater Isreal.

But that is how Zionism works. The politic astuteness of Zionist politicians is how far they can push at any one time to clear land of Palestinians. Gradually in West Bank for example. Bombing Gaza / telling people to leave/ asking Egypt to take them "temporarily" is classic Zionism.

What I see is that the mass demonstration around the world by ordinary people. Even when their governments try to stop them ( France and Germany ) are having an effect.

What citizens can do imo is go to as many of the demos called as possible.

 

[The39thStep]

Would landing in America and attempting to wipe-out the original populations make the Europeans the settlers?

in my view yes however my question was more related to now rather than then

 

[The39thStep]

It's not just that he's got the wrong position on this, he's utterly ham fisted at politics as a craft.

Here's the response

 

[two sheds]

I mean, yes, denying data relating to large-scale civilian deaths could certainly qualify as genocide denial. I guess we’ll have to see where it goes, hey? Since you see nothing wrong so far at all with anything Israel has done in Gaza.

THAT'S NOT TRUE there was a criticism of Israel - that they hadn't closed the borders while they were killing people in the West Bank

 

[8ball]

Here's the response

View attachment 396956

Can’t be much clearer than that.

 

[two sheds]

Oh I don't know, Starmer was just responding to the previous question

 

[TopCat]

do you know that bit about if you don't understand the past you won't understand the present?

A lot of people don’t know this. Tony Blair reportedly did not know of the UK /US orchestrated coup in Iran in the 60’s, this at the time of attacking Iraq.