Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[belboid]

Yes, how does Israel politically achieve that from here without taking any action in Gaza. The problem at Camp David boiled down to what the Israeli and Palestinian populations would accept.

It's the bigger man that is brave enough to make the first move. And no one can doubt Israel is the bigger 'man' (even if it is describing itself in the feminine at the moment).

 

[elbows]

Further UN Secretary General remarks via the BBC live updates page:

The protection of civilians is paramount in any armed conflict.

Protecting civilians can never mean using them as human shields. Protecting civilians does not mean ordering more than one million people to evacuate to the south, where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel, and then continuing to bomb the south itself."

I am deeply concerned about the clear violations of international humanitarian law that we are witnessing in Gaza.

Let me be clear: No party to an armed conflict is above international humanitarian law."

 

[kabbes]

Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.

Actually, I will make one comment. This entire post could be summed up by a one liner: “Sure, they’re killing civilians in Gaza, but…”

 

[agricola]

Sure. Hamas could unconditionally surrender too. I guess we'll just have to wait and hope.

Hamas are not an established state that at least claims to follow international laws.

 

[xenon]

Has anyone claimed that "no-one was celebrating Hamas' actions"? I'm certainly not, in fact as I noted to Spymaster my first post here was criticising people on the left who were failing to be as hard on Hamas as they had been on Ukraine. I was in fact on that shit immediately.

What I did do today was ask for names so the claim that Urban's left-wing contingent has a problem with apologism/denial/excuse making on behalf of Hamas could be examined. Thus far one example from October 7th has been provided, with a quote which I pointed out is not in fact celebrating "Hamas" and which later saw the poster apologise for what it was saying. Is that daft denial, or weaselly?

My assertion is that you are wrong thatpost was clearly celebrating Hamas’ actions. The Weasley bit is you denying it does. I mean who else was carrying out the attacks on October 7. You just don’t like that example despite having asked for some,. That is my point of contention.

 

[Knotted]

Everybody understands that anti-semitism is still anti-semitism regardless of the individual Jews it is directed at. But when Joav Gallant said "we are fighting human animals" liberals throughout the western world said "tsk, don't conflate Hamas with the people of Gaza". Ie. not all Arabs. We can see this stance on this thread sadly.

 

[elbows]

Yes, I’m not going to condemn something just because the massacre-enablers at the UN say so.

You are a pathetic extremist who has the luxury of deploying blatant double-standards without the need to compensate. Entities like the UN cannot get away with such a transparent lack of balance.

The UN has to point out what international law consists of and when it is blatantly violated. And they do so with reference to the history and the legal responsibilities of the occupying power.

The UN does have various flaws and is not equipped to overcome the realities of which nations are the most powerful and can play by their own rules. Often all it is left with on this front is weapons of rhetoric.

 

[platinumsage]

Actually, I will make one comment. This entire post could be summed up by a one liner: “Sure, they’re killing civilians in Gaza, but…”

Like this guy you mean?

 

[Rob Ray]

My assertion is that you are wrong thatpost was clearly celebrating Hamas’ actions. The Weasley bit is you denying it does. I mean who else was carrying out the attacks on October 7. You just don’t like that example despite having asked for some,. That is my point of contention.

I don't mind the example I've simply disagreed with your characterisation of Knotted's motivations when he posted it, and his subsequent position. There is a difference you know.

 

[Rimbaud]

They’ve fired more rockets since the 7th of October than in the previous ten years. Casualites have been limited because Israel has sacrificed unoccupied and evacuated buildings to conserve Iron Dome ammo.

So Hamas are throwing everything they've got at them (in response to their assault on Gaza btw) and still can't do any damage?

 

[platinumsage]

So Hamas are throwing everything they've got at them (in response to their assault on Gaza btw) and still can't do any damage?

You think the population of Israel would just accept daily runs to bomb shelters whilst refraining from bombing the perpetrators? Anything else you think they will accept that they obviously won’t?

 

[Pickman's model]

You think the population of Israel would just accept daily runs to bomb shelters whilst refraining from bombing the perpetrators? Anything else you think they will accept that they obviously won’t?

A just and lasting peace springs to mind

 

[Knotted]

Like this guy you mean?

This is just wrong. On past form Hamas have consistently underestimated civilian casualties. They want to inflate combatant deaths to show how many brave martyrs are fighting for them. Israel's apologists for war crimes often quote Hamas figures as if they're credible.

 

[Rimbaud]

You think the population of Israel would just accept daily runs to bomb shelters whilst refraining from bombing the perpetrators? Anything else you think they will accept that they obviously won’t?

So it's about revenge, not security?

Where do you draw the line? Apparently not at ethnic cleansing and the killing of hundreds of children.

 

[belboid]

You think the population of Israel would just accept daily runs to bomb shelters whilst refraining from bombing the perpetrators? Anything else you think they will accept that they obviously won’t?

why not? It's exactly what you and they expect Palestinians to do. And it's what they expected them to do when it was the nice fluffy secular PLO - they're the ones who were massacred at Sabra and Shatila. A point you still have respond to, you silly little hypocrite.

 

[mojo pixy]

Anyone who really has the wellbeing of Israel in mind should be pressing the (extreme right-wing) Israeli government to stop this violence, step back, and start talking. Why? Because later, this is all going to rebound disastrously on Israel, its people, and very likely jews everywhere.

The only reason to support what's happening right now in Gaza is to express contempt for Palestinians, and for the peace process in general. Which I expect from Israelis, but not from foreigners.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Like this guy you mean?

Yes, the Gaza's health ministry is run by Hamas, but in view of all the bombing, wiping out whole neighborhoods, are you seriously suggesting they are over estimating the number of deaths?

As there's very little in the way of trying to dig bodies out of all these apartment blocks that have been flatten, I think the death figures are very likely an under estimate.

There's are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[platinumsage]

This is just wrong. On past form Hamas have consistently underestimated civilian casualties. They want to inflate combatant deaths to show how many brave martyrs are fighting for them. Israel's apologists for war crimes often quote Hamas figures as if they're credible.

Nope, they are including combatant deaths with civilian casualties (which also include casualties from their own rockets) so that’s nonsense. They also have a track record of inflating casualty figures.

 

[Knotted]

Nope, they are including combatant deaths with civilian casualties (which also include casualties from their own rockets) so that’s nonsense. They also have a track record of inflating casualty figures.

They have a track record of underplaying civilian casualties. I remember it well in the aftermath of Cast Lead and Protective Edge. Hamas figures quoted everywhere by Israel's apologists in contrast to the UN figures.

 

[Ax^]

Nope, they are including combatant deaths with civilian casualties (which also include casualties from their own rockets) so that’s nonsense. They also have a track record of inflating casualty figures.

jesus christ you coming across like a fucking asshat

a bloodthirsty one as well

 

[platinumsage]

They have a track record of underplaying civilian casualties. I remember it well in the aftermath of Cast Lead and Protective Edge. Hamas figures quoted everywhere by Israel's apologists in contrast to the UN figures.

When it suits them. Also when it suits them they inflate figures, as is obviously happening now.

jesus christ you coming across like a fucking asshat

a bloodthirsty one as well

Yes it’s clear that even remarking on casualty data is genocide denial or something.

 

[Knotted]

When it suits them. Also when it suits them they inflate figures, as is obviously happening now.

How the bloody hell is it obvious? Did you count them yourself?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Nope, they are including combatant deaths with civilian casualties (which also include casualties from their own rockets) so that’s nonsense. They also have a track record of inflating casualty figures.

The Israelis said they had dropped 6,000 bombs on DAY SIX, and you seriously suggesting the figure of 1,400 deaths at that point were over estimated?

You need to give your head a serious wobble.

Israeli air strikes are pounding the Gaza Strip for a sixth consecutive day as fears of a humanitarian disaster in the besieged Palestinian enclave mount.

Israel on Thursday said it has dropped 6,000 bombs weighing 4,000 tonnes on Gaza in the past six days, killing more than 1,400 people.

Israel says 6,000 bombs dropped on Gaza as war with Hamas nears a week

Air strikes pound Gaza for sixth day as deaths and fears of humanitarian disaster in besieged Palestinian enclave mount.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[cupid_stunt]

When it suits them. Also when it suits them they inflate figures, as is obviously happening now.

You've totally lost the plot.

 

[Ax^]

Yes it’s clear that even remarking on casualty data is genocide denial or something.

you shared no data just your biased opinion on figures ...

you are coming across like Naftali Bennett at the moment

 

[Wilf]

You think the population of Israel would just accept daily runs to bomb shelters whilst refraining from bombing the perpetrators? Anything else you think they will accept that they obviously won’t?

So, being under threat justifies mass violence? Wonder how that works if you apply it to the situation faced by the Palestinians? Are you still on board then?

 

[platinumsage]

How the bloody hell is it obvious? Did you count them yourself?

Well you can start with the 900 killed in the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital parking lot rocket misfire incident. Quickly revised to 473, but probably around 100.

 

[Knotted]

Well you can start with the 900 killed in the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital parking lot rocket misfire incident. Quickly revised to 473, but probably around 100.

A bunch of stuff that's unproven means that everything else is obvious. Take a break mate.

 

[platinumsage]

So, being under threat justifies mass violence? Wonder how that works if you apply it to the situation faced by the Palestinians? Are you still on board then?

Am I on board with the Palestinian terrorists torturing and killing civilians in response to stringent border controls on Gaza and settlement expansion in the West Bank? No, I'm not. HTH etc

 

[Gramsci]

Head of UN speak today,

Secretary-General's remarks to the Security Council - on the Middle East [as delivered] | United Nations Secretary-General

www.un.org

Israeli UN ambassador was very very angry .

Antonio Guterres speech criticised both sides.

To add he said the Hamas attacks were terror. Stopped short of saying Israel bombing was collective punishment. Saying instead both sides should obey rules of war

Said again there should be a humanitarian ceasefire.

And put in the context which was this:

is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.

The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation.

They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.

This enraged the Israeli UN ambassador.



For those not on twitter this is what he said:

His statement that, “the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,” expressed an understanding for terrorism and murder. It’s really unfathomable. It’s truly sad that the head of an organization that arose after the Holocaust holds such horrible views. A tragedy!

I thought it was a good speech by head of UN. Somewhat different from what Starmer / Sunak and Biden are saying.

Predictable response for saying their is a context to the violence. Putting forward reason for the roots of the violence.