Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[platinumsage]

How many civilians in Israel have been killed by rocket attacks in the last 10 years? Of course they are capable of stopping the attacks. Their success with the iron dome was why they got complacent and left it relatively undefended in the first place.

They’ve fired more rockets since the 7th of October than in the previous ten years. Casualites have been limited because Israel has sacrificed unoccupied and evacuated buildings to conserve Iron Dome ammo.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which is the aim of the State of Israel; a continuation of the expansion of the territory of the state and further dispossession of Palestinian Arabs. A war aim that will guarantee the continuation of the conflict. An aim with which the government of the UK is happy.

Yep. The Israeli state does not want peace. Hasn't done for at least the last 20 years. That's the reality here. Asking 'what do you think Israel should have done?' is an absurd question really.

 

[belboid]

They’ve fired more rockets since the 7th of October than in the previous ten years. Casualites have been limited because Israel has sacrificed unoccupied and evacuated buildings to conserve Iron Dome ammo.

how fucking brave of them. You really are an awful apologist for racism and murder.

 

[platinumsage]

And there, in a phrase, shows how lopsided this whole thing.

"Make a number of unilateral concessions" such as a temporary pause of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. How magnanimous and generous! They can't do that of course as that would merely encourage terrorism. Best to force 1 million people out of their homes and cut off water, food, energy and medical supplies to 2 million.

Even withdrawing entirely from the West Bank as they did from Gaza wouldn’t stop continued attacks from Gaza, so yes they are better off going after Hamas. They could agree a perpetual utopia with the PA and it wouldn’t stop Hamas carrying on.

I asked what response Israel might reasonably do i.e. is politically achievable for them instead of targeting Hamas, but it seems you don’t have an answer.

 

[Rob Ray]

I'm not interested in arguing with him about it, his reaction is what it was. he's rowed back a bit as more stuff has come out sure. But when it's claimed no one here was celebrating Hamas actions and evidence is presented, it looks at best daft to try denying it and maybe a bit weasily.

Has anyone claimed that "no-one was celebrating Hamas' actions"? I'm certainly not, in fact as I noted to Spymaster my first post here was criticising people on the left who were failing to be as hard on Hamas as they had been on Ukraine. I was in fact on that shit immediately.

What I did do today was ask for names so the claim that Urban's left-wing contingent has a problem with apologism/denial/excuse making on behalf of Hamas could be examined. Thus far one example from October 7th has been provided, with a quote which I pointed out is not in fact celebrating "Hamas" and which later saw the poster apologise for what it was saying. Is that daft denial, or weaselly?

 

[belboid]

best just kill them all then, there's clearly no other solution.

 

[platinumsage]

how fucking brave of them. You really are an awful apologist for racism and murder.

Are you suggesting they shouldn’t have the iron dome and should permit a decent number of civilian casualties from these indiscriminate rocket attacks instead? Or maybe you think they should all get in the sea. Fucking numpty.

 

[Pickman's model]

best just kill them all then, there's clearly no other solution.

Yeh, best to a permanent perhaps final solution after all the shilly-shallying of the past

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you suggesting they shouldn’t have the iron dome and should permit a decent qnumber of civilian casualties from these indiscriminate rocket attacks instead? Or maybe you think they should all get in the sea. Fucking numpty.

I'd suggest they destroyed their enemy by turning them into a friend but that ship's rather sailed now

 

[brogdale]

If any further proof were needed that right-wingers are a self-selecting cohort of sociopaths...this thread has got some.

 

[Spymaster]

Has anyone claimed that "no-one was celebrating Hamas' actions"? I'm certainly not, in fact as I noted to Spymaster my first post here was criticising people on the left who were failing to be as hard on Hamas as they had been on Ukraine. I was in fact on that shit immediately.

What I did do today was ask for names so the claim that Urban's left-wing contingent has a problem with apologism/denial/excuse making on behalf of Hamas could be examined. Thus far one example from October 7th has been provided, with a quote which I pointed out is not in fact celebrating "Hamas" and which later saw the poster apologise for what it was saying. Is that daft denial, or weaselly?

He asked for names, and when they were given to him said ‘those ones don’t count’!

 

[belboid]

Are you suggesting they shouldn’t have the iron dome and should permit a decent number of civilian casualties from these indiscriminate rocket attacks instead? Or maybe you think they should all get in the sea. Fucking numpty.

I'd suggest they should treat Palestinians with dignity and respect and allow a 'meaningful' Palestinian state to exist. That would be a pretty good way to undermine Hamas. But they never have and never will. The apartheid state needs to expand and to steal more land, or it would have collapsed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He asked for names, and when they were given to him said ‘those ones don’t count’!

Why are you getting involved in this? You of all people, who said something really dumb and later admitted as much. Maybe keep quiet on this point?

 

[brogdale]

He asked for names, and when they were given to him said ‘those ones don’t count’!

I think it was more clarification, tbh

 

[agricola]

Apparently pointing out reality is now taboo:

 

[Spymaster]

Why are you getting involved in this? You of all people, who said something really dumb and later admitted as much. Maybe keep quiet on this point?

That’s a better qualification than saying something dumb and doubling down on it, which is otherwise the norm here.

 

[agricola]

I'd suggest they should treat Palestinians with dignity and respect and allow a 'meaningful' Palestinian state to exist. That would be a pretty good way to undermine Hamas. But they never have and never will. The apartheid state needs to expand and to steal more land, or it would have collapsed.

I disagree about the use of the word "state" there; the current governing class has to do that - to have a perpetual crisis - but there is no need for the state itself to do it.

 

[brogdale]

That’s a better qualification than saying something dumb and doubling down on it, which is otherwise the norm here.

Ah yes, the travellers thread; remember it well.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Apparently pointing out reality is now taboo:

Good for the bingo card. Nazis and Holocaust.

 

[Raheem]

There’s lots of talk about Israeli war crimes, but it seems disputable whether they have committed any or not - it will require close monitoring and an investigation.

"Opinion is divided on the matter."

 

[platinumsage]

I'd suggest they should treat Palestinians with dignity and respect and allow a 'meaningful' Palestinian state to exist. That would be a pretty good way to undermine Hamas. But they never have and never will. The apartheid state needs to expand and to steal more land, or it would have collapsed.

Yes, how does Israel politically achieve that from here without taking any action in Gaza. The problem at Camp David boiled down to what the Israeli and Palestinian populations would accept.

 

[Rob Ray]

They've already taken action in Gaza - 5,700+ people have died so far. You're also asking as though the military option will solve anything, which it won't unless they're prepared to go to lengths so gruesome what's happened so far won't even begin to compare. It's not "if not this option, what" because what's being done now isn't an "option". It's punishment.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Highlights of Macron visit:

Thread by @Mij_Europe on Thread Reader App

@Mij_Europe: Macron today attempted a perilous balancing act in a conflict which threatens to overturn all balance & proportion. After talks in Jslum with Israeli PM Netanyahu, Macron called for a western coalition ...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[elbows]

Apparently pointing out reality is now taboo:

Via the BBC here is more of what the UN bloke actually said:

At a meeting of the United Nations Security Council in New York, secretary general Antonio Guterres said that "the 7 October attack by Hamas on Israel "did not happen in a vacuum”.

Guterres added “The Palestinian people been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their lands steadily devolved by settlements and plagued by violence. Their economy stifled. Their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing."

But he also said: "the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas and those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people”.

 

[kabbes]

Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.

Thank you for your response. I think it stands on its own merits without further comment from me.

 

[agricola]

Yes, how does Israel politically achieve that from here without taking any action in Gaza. The problem at Camp David boiled down to what the Israeli and Palestinian populations would accept.

They could start by not describing a senior international figure's rational take on the situation as being akin to excusing murder.

Getting away from a position that their allies have to support absolutely everything they do or they support Hamas, and by extension Hitler, would also be an improvement.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They've already taken action in Gaza - 5,000+ people have died so far. You're also asking as though the military option will solve anything, which it won't unless they're prepared to go to lengths so gruesome what's happened so far won't even begin to compare. It's not "if not this option, what" because what's being done now isn't an "option". It's punishment.

This is why this whole line of discussion is absurd. They're repeating it all over various media such as the BBC, Guardian, etc. How do they go after Hamas? Well it's going to be messy and there will be lots of collateral damage. Etc. But that's not what they are doing. They're not going after Hamas. They're killing people in Gaza as revenge for the deaths in the Hamas attacks. It will be 10 of you for every one of us. That's the logic here. Don't fuck with us because you should never be in any doubt that we are even bigger bastards than you.

 

[Pickman's model]

Apparently pointing out reality is now taboo:

If he's going to bring up the holocaust then any comparisons made between the treatment of Jews in eg the Warsaw ghetto by the nazis and the treatment of the Palestinians in gaza by the zionists seem to me to be invited

 

[Pickman's model]

This is why this whole line of discussion is absurd. They're repeating it all over various media such as the BBC, Guardian, etc. How do they go after Hamas? Well it's going to be messy and there will be lots of collateral damage. Etc. But that's not what they are doing. They're not going after Hamas. They're killing people in Gaza as revenge for the deaths in the Hamas attacks. It will be 10 of you for every one of us. That's the logic here. Don't fuck with us because you should never be in any doubt that we are even bigger bastards than you.

I don't think they're going to stop at 10

 

[platinumsage]

They could start by not describing a senior international figure's rational take on the situation as being akin to excusing murder.

Getting away from a position that their allies have to support absolutely everything they do or they support Hamas, and by extension Hitler, would also be an improvement.

Sure. Hamas could unconditionally surrender too. I guess we'll just have to wait and hope.