Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Kevbad the Bad]

Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.

If a gang from a nearby estate attack my neighbours and family, killing and maiming, that does not give me sufficient reason to attack the estate with bombs, destroying many of the houses, killing far more innocent bystanders in the hope that I might get some of those responsible for the original crime. Especially if I am in possession of sophisticated weaponry and an advantage in every resource imaginable, from communications to logistics. Precisely what course of action might be appropriate is up for discussion, but an attack on the scale of that being currently carried out by Israel, let alone what may be in the pipeline, would be completely out of order.
The sheer number of houses destroyed and damaged in Gaza goes way beyond anything that could charitably be labelled 'targeted' bombing. The UN and other aid agencies are of one mind on this, but you would rather wait until the Israeli state gets the chance to investigate everything, by which time it will be far too late. Our opinions on here are of no great influence, but public opinion in the West could still have some impact on Western governments, which could have influence on the Israelis.

 

[platinumsage]

I went through hell, says elderly hostage released by Hamas

Yocheved Lifschitz says she was kidnapped and taken into a "spider's web" of tunnels underneath Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

It does look like hostages are being treated well after a horrific first day.

Her husband is still being held, so she is still under duress and should be presumed to be saying what she was told to avoid him coming to further harm.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Would you be happy with the air force dropping a bomb on the block of flats in which you lived, because the air force believed that a leading figure in an enemy group lived there?

Should the RAF have demolished the Divis Flats in Belfast on the grounds that a number of members of the IRA lived there?

While the IDF and its apologists reassure themselves that it is not "deliberately targeting civilians" that is not how it looks to the poor people who live in the dwellings being demolished.

Furthermore, the definition of "civilian" has been narrowed by the IDF to exclude those involved in the civil administration of the Gaza Strip, as they are members of Hamas.

The problem seems to be the IDF's thinking that 'Hamas could be anywhere, therefore everywhere is a target', I understand their thinking, but I totally reject it.

 

[platinumsage]

If a gang from a nearby estate attack my neighbours and family, killing and maiming, that does not give me sufficient reason to attack the estate with bombs, destroying many of the houses, killing far more innocent bystanders in the hope that I might get some of those responsible for the original crime. Especially if I am in possession of sophisticated weaponry and an advantage in every resource imaginable, from communications to logistics. Precisely what course of action might be appropriate is up for discussion, but an attack on the scale of that being currently carried out by Israel, let alone what may be in the pipeline, would be completely out of order.

I haven’t seen any discussion of what response by Israel would be considered appropriate.

The sheer number of houses destroyed and damaged in Gaza goes way beyond anything that could charitably be labelled 'targeted' bombing. The UN and other aid agencies are of one mind on this, but you would rather wait until the Israeli state gets the chance to investigate everything, by which time it will be far too late. Our opinions on here are of no great influence, but public opinion in the West could still have some impact on Western governments, which could have influence on the Israelis.

Yes, I’m not going to condemn something just because the massacre-enablers at the UN say so.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Well, I thought it was worth a 'like' for honesty and lack of posturing.

Honesty?

 

[8ball]

I went through hell, says elderly hostage released by Hamas

Yocheved Lifschitz says she was kidnapped and taken into a "spider's web" of tunnels underneath Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

It does look like hostages are being treated well after a horrific first day.

Are we getting any good information on how these releases are being secured, what is promised / exchanged in return etc.?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I haven’t seen any discussion of what response by Israel would be considered appropriate.

True, because we're discuss the actual response, which is turning genocidal.

 

[platinumsage]

True, because we're discuss the actual response, which is turning genocidal.

Right, so if their response should be condemned, what response might they reasonably carry out that wouldn’t be condemned? You never know they might even change tack.

 

[Knotted]

Her husband is still being held, so she is still under duress and should be presumed to be saying what she was told to avoid him coming to further harm.

That's why she said they were beaten with sticks?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Yes, I’m not going to condemn something just because the massacre-enablers at the UN say so.

I aleay wondered what UN stood for.

 

[Wilf]

I haven’t seen any discussion of what response by Israel would be considered appropriate.



Yes, I’m not going to condemn something just because the massacre-enablers at the UN say so.

To be honest, you're not going to condemn anything done by the Israeli side, full stop. And when we spin the bottle, go round the block, twiddle away a bit further, that's the bottom line isn't it?

 

[8ball]

That's why she said they were beaten with sticks?

It's quite possible a traumatised 85 year old isn't going to be the most reliable in terms of sticking to the story her gaolers told her to tell.
I wouldn't conclude much in any direction at this point.

And this is assuming we are getting the unfiltered version from the media.

 

[Mezzer]

I haven’t seen any discussion of what response by Israel would be considered appropriate.



Yes, I’m not going to condemn something just because the massacre-enablers at the UN say so.

Should have put you on ignore a long time ago. You are now. Nothing constructive to say and constantly enabling Israeli war crimes whilst only saying 'what about the massacre'? No analysis and just endless ramping up.

 

[belboid]

I haven’t seen any discussion of what response by Israel would be considered appropriate.



Yes, I’m not going to condemn something just because the massacre-enablers at the UN say so.

if the UN are massacre-enablers, what does that make the folk who stood around and did nothing during the massacres at Sabra & Shatila?

 

[Rimbaud]

Right, so if their response should be condemned, what response might they reasonably carry out that wouldn’t be condemned? You never know they might even change tack.

Hostage negotiation.

They already killed all the Hamas attackers. They defended themselves already and nobody is condemning them for that.

They could move their soldiers away from the West Bank and secure the border with Gaza. Hamas had the advantage of surprise but they do not pose a serious military threat otherwise, this is a consequence of IDF being complacent and redeploying to West Bank to support ethnic cleansing there.

Bombing Gaza itself does little to free the hostages and endangers them and is also beyond what is necessary for defense.

 

[CNT36]

I haven’t seen any discussion of what response by Israel would be considered appropriate

There was this

Defense means exactly that. Literally nobody is condemning Israel for the 1500 Hamas militants killed attacking Israel. That is legitimate defense. Cutting off water to 2.2 million people, the majority of whom are children, is not.

A lot of people showing themselves to be monsters right now.

There was also one in the last couple of days startng with the above then suggesting negotiating for hostages and some other stuff.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

It feels to me like someone in Labour PR has just gone DON'T SAY ANYTHING CRITICISING ISRAEL OR THE MAIL WILL BE CALLING US ANTISEMITES AGAIN which is unhelpful. Both of Labour and the Mail and it's ilk.

So sick of us being used as Labour kryptonite by people who don't actually give a shit for us.

I feel this.

 

[barlimo]

It seems that israel has been given a licence to kill innocent civilians while our politicians ciongratulate them on their genocidal tactics.

 

[Knotted]

It's quite possible a traumatised 85 year old isn't going to be the most reliable in terms of sticking to the story her gaolers told her to tell.
I wouldn't conclude much in any direction at this point.

And this is assuming we are getting the unfiltered version from the media.

So traumatised and terrified of the guards that she shook one of their hands and said "shalom". And this was so staged and rehearsed that it took him by surprise?

How did we get to the point that we think kind old ladies are to be trusted less than politicians and partisan lawyers?

 

[PTK]

if the UN are massacre-enablers, what does that make the folk who stood around and did nothing during the massacres at Sabra & Shatila?

I find it interesting that Oded, the husband of the released hostage Yocheved Lifschitz, “used to work for newspaper Al Hamishmar, and was among the first journalists to report on the massacre in two Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut in 1982.” Oded is still being held hostage.

 

[8ball]

How did we get to the point that we think kind old ladies are to be trusted less than politicians and partisan lawyers?

I certainly now think I'd trust her more than you on anything relating to this issue.

 

[8ball]

I find it interesting that Oded, the husband of the released hostage Yocheved Lifschitz, “used to work for newspaper Al Hamishmar, and was among the first journalists to report on the massacre in two Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut in 1982.” Oded is still being held hostage.

And speaks fluent Arabic and knows many people in Gaza according to reports.
Might have given him some leverage in getting his wife released.

 

[platinumsage]

Hostage negotiation.

They already killed all the Hamas attackers. They defended themselves already and nobody is condemning them for that.

They could move their soldiers away from the West Bank and secure the border with Gaza. Hamas had the advantage of surprise but they do not pose a serious military threat otherwise, this is a consequence of IDF being complacent and redeploying to West Bank to support ethnic cleansing there.

Bombing Gaza itself does little to free the hostages and endangers them and is also beyond what is necessary for defense.

Hostage negotiation just encourages future hostage taking. Always best in the long run not to pick up the phone, swapping Gildat Shalit for 1,027 prisoners was madness. I‘d guess Israel has been accumulating prisoners in case they’re needed for future hostage exchanges. The whole thing should have been stopped a long time ago.

Plenty of attackers escaped, for example those who carried off hostages, and then there’s the continued rocket attacks and the now revealed fact that Hamas may take every opportunity to rape, seize or kill any Jewish people they can get their hands on. You suggest Israel should simply move troops to the border, but will that really be enough to guarantee protection against further atrocities? The best way of defending is surely to eliminate the Hamas hierarchy such that they can no longer secure support from Iran or Qatar. Individuals matter and if they’re all dead then any relationships they have with their backers will be dead too.

 

[Rimbaud]

Hostage negotiation just encourages future hostage taking. Always best in the long run not to pick up the phone, swapping Gildat Shalit for 1,027 prisoners was madness. I‘d guess Israel has been accumulating prisoners in case they’re needed for future hostage exchanges. The whole thing should have been stopped a long time ago.

Plenty of attackers escaped, for example those who carried off hostages, and then there’s the continued rocket attacks and the now revealed fact that Hamas may take every opportunity to rape, seize or kill any Jewish people they can get their hands on. You suggest Israel should simply move troops to the border, but will that really be enough to guarantee protection against further atrocities? The best way of defending is surely to eliminate the Hamas hierarchy such that they can no longer secure support from Iran or Qatar. Individuals matter and if they’re all dead then any relationships they have with their backers will be dead too.

Yet Israel must make concessions for any peace. That means a freeze of West Bank settlements at the very least. Unless you think that there should be no dialogue and Israel should just continue ethnic cleansing in the West Bank lest they be seen to give in to terrorism.

Which seems to be your position.

 

[PTK]

Yet Israel must make concessions for any peace. That means a freeze of West Bank settlements at the very least. Unless you think that there should be no dialogue and Israel should just continue ethnic cleansing in the West Bank lest they be seen to give in to terrorism.

Which seems to be your position.

Which is the aim of the State of Israel; a continuation of the expansion of the territory of the state and further dispossession of Palestinian Arabs. A war aim that will guarantee the continuation of the conflict. An aim with which the government of the UK is happy.

 

[platinumsage]

Yet Israel must make concessions for any peace. That means a freeze of West Bank settlements at the very least. Unless you think that there should be no dialogue and Israel should just continue ethnic cleansing in the West Bank lest they be seen to give in to terrorism.

Which seems to be your position.

Yes there needs to be a mediated agreement, but we’re far away from that. Even if Israel were to make a number of unilateral concessions, for example with respect to the West Bank, I don’t think that would be anywhere near enough to even stop the rocket attacks from Gaza.

 

[Rimbaud]

Yes, Hamas have released some hostages, but that isn't because of Israel bombing Gaza to kingdom come.The point is PR and to demonstrate that they are open to negotiations and that the hostages aren't a lost cause.

Other than that, there is no real hope of a serious rescue attempt by decimating Gaza. It will simply cost the hostages their lives. But as your mask clears it is increasingly obvious that you don't actually care about their lives.

 

[Spymaster]

Just as platinumsage refuses to respond to...

Not really my point. You suggested that you felt these boards were exactly the place where Palestine would be supported and Hamas not. I’m not sure why you’d think that if you’ve been reading the thread, or have a broader idea of where a large element of “the left” come from on this. U75 is not a refined chat-shop of reasoned socialism. On Israel/Palestine and one or two other subjects it’s a distillate of some of the most vile left-wing fundamentalist politics.

Lol just idly clicked on "you are ignoring content by" for Spymaster and discovered he'd been bollocking on at me for multiple pages as though he'd found a gotcha having apparently forgotten I'd blocked him.

Spymaster my very first post on this thread was specifically taking the piss out of lefties for not being critical enough of Hamas – and you Liked it. For your peace of mind, I think Hamas is a horror of an organisation that has done as much if not more to repress the people of Gaza as Israel. I think what its soldiers did was horrific.

And I think you've directly fallen into the infantile "yeah but you like them really though don't you" bullshit I've been talking about, which makes me feel like I did exactly the right thing by putting you on ignore. So back on you pop. Do try to remember that next time you're having a one-sided debate eh.

No need. I know you’re peeking.

 

[Rimbaud]

Yes there needs to be a mediated agreement, but we’re far away from that. Even if Israel were to make a number of unilateral concessions, for example with respect to the West Bank, I don’t think that would be anywhere near enough to even stop the rocket attacks from Gaza.

How many civilians in Israel have been killed by rocket attacks in the last 10 years? Of course they are capable of stopping the attacks. Their success with the iron dome was why they got complacent and left it relatively undefended in the first place.

 

[Rimbaud]

Yes there needs to be a mediated agreement, but we’re far away from that. Even if Israel were to make a number of unilateral concessions, for example with respect to the West Bank, I don’t think that would be anywhere near enough to even stop the rocket attacks from Gaza.

And there, in a phrase, shows how lopsided this whole thing.

"Make a number of unilateral concessions" such as a temporary pause of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. How magnanimous and generous! They can't do that of course as that would merely encourage terrorism. Best to force 1 million people out of their homes and cut off water, food, energy and medical supplies to 2 million.