Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Wilf]

One of the problems with this place is that a post, once made, can never be undone and can always be quoted again and again - four times so far in this case - despite anything you might post subsequently. Knotted has subsequently apologised for that post, made on the day in a highly emotional state.

Yep, I certainly didn't agree with what Knotted originally said, but if Spymaster has the chance to withdraw/modify what they put, so does Knotted.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd have thought - hoped in fact - that Urban was exactly the kind of place that supported the Palestinians but didn't support Hamas.

And that is overwhelmingly the case if the evidence of this thread is anything to go by. Unless, of course, none of us is saying what we actually think.

Urban obviously isn't a typical cross-section of society. If it were, the Tory party wouldn't have single MP.

 

[Spymaster]

I'd have thought - hoped in fact - that Urban was exactly the kind of place that supported the Palestinians but didn't support Hamas.

If that were true, they’d say so, yet Rob Ray and others flatly refuse to.

 

[Ax^]

Christ if the stuff the IDF have been briefing journos on in their 45 min for your eyes only video presentation is true. Hell if even half of it is true. Beheading people, then having sex with them, with written orders to do so. It doesn't excuse what Israel is currently engaging it but fucking hell. What sick fucks. The footage of the little boys being grenaded. How could a normal person actually do shit like that. Were they drugged?

get the fuck of the twitter for 5 minutes

go for a walk

 

[The39thStep]

I know the left is pitching the resignations as a real threat to Starmer but tbh I suspect he'll be quite pleased - losing a few councils (probably temporarily) isn't such a huge cost from a centrist perspective if you're also getting rid of a load of influential lefties from prime positions. What did he call them, fleas?

It wasn't him, the rumour was that it was Luke Akehurst. Suffice to say that Starmer's tweet from visiting the Mosque in Cardiff ( apparently his fixers had difficulty in finding a London mosque that would host him) which had a photo of him with mosque members with the words "I repeated our calls for all hostages to be released " didn't repair much of the collateral damage.

 

[PTK]

Christ if the stuff the IDF have been briefing journos on in their 45 min for your eyes only video presentation is true. Hell if even half of it is true. Beheading people, then having sex with them, with written orders to do so. It doesn't excuse what Israel is currently engaging it but fucking hell. What sick fucks. The footage of the little boys being grenaded. How could a normal person actually do shit like that. Were they drugged?

"Beheading people, then having sex with them, with written orders to do so."
That sounds more than a little unlikely.

 

[Wilf]

If that were true, they’d say so, yet Rob Ray and others flatly refuse to.

Just as platinumsage refuses to respond to...

What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

My default position wrt anything the IDF says is that they are known and notorious, brazen liars. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I am more than a bit suspicious of a presentation coming out more than two weeks later just as the Israelis are intensifying their killing efforts.

 

[Gramsci]

Then I’d suggest that PS didn’t include you in what you’ve quoted there.

There are plenty of posts here where people have justified/“understood” the Hamas action, or come so near as damnit as to make no difference.

TopCat, Gramsci, donkyboy, among others are all there.

Understanding something isn't the same as supporting it.

 

[Wilf]

Just as platinumsage refuses to respond to...

Actually, I'll have another go at this, not just to needle them. This whole thread has seen numerous attempts to get pro-Palestinian posters to unpick their position, get them to condemn Hamas and the rest. If you think what Israel is currently doing is legitimate, it surely follows that you can respond to the request above. platinumsage ?

 

[Rob Ray]

Lol just idly clicked on "you are ignoring content by" for Spymaster and discovered he'd been bollocking on at me for multiple pages as though he'd found a gotcha having apparently forgotten I'd blocked him.

Spymaster my very first post on this thread was specifically taking the piss out of lefties for not being critical enough of Hamas – and you Liked it. For your peace of mind, I think Hamas is a horror of an organisation that has done as much if not more to repress the people of Gaza as Israel. I think what its soldiers did was horrific.

And I think you've directly fallen into the infantile "yeah but you like them really though don't you" bullshit I've been talking about, which makes me feel like I did exactly the right thing by putting you on ignore. So back on you pop. Do try to remember that next time you're having a one-sided debate eh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Understanding something isn't the same as supporting it.

For me, it's not even about understanding Hamas. It's about understanding how Hamas has gained so much support within Gaza, how it is that Islamists have hijacked another liberation movement.

 

[pbsmooth]

So who's been celebrating Hamas then? Start from there, then we can talk about what it means etc. "The left" is meaningless - as was asked earlier name names.

well, knotted was. I pulled them up on it a few million pages ago.

 

[Rob Ray]

Yeah A380 mentioned it above - there's been some chatting about it.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Understanding something isn't the same as supporting it.

100% this.

I was late to the thread, as I had an old mate staying that the weekend, so hadn't looked at urban, but in my first posts I said I understood why Hamas had attacked, whilst also basically condemning their horrific attack, both for what they did in Israel, but also because of the reaction it would cause, as in the innocent suffering, but Hamas doesn't care about that, because they are cunts.

Yes, there's been a couple of posters that expressed their support for Hamas, but they are in a tiny, tiny minority.

In the interest of balance, I consider the current government in Israel are cunts too, and I condemn their over reaction and the methods they are using, in response to the Hamas attack.

It's all such a bloody mess, deeply depressing, and likely to get a lot worst.

 

[The39thStep]

Understanding something isn't the same as supporting it.

Condemning more understanding less is the new red chinos for urban I’m afraid .

 

[TopCat]

You can quote that as much as you like, but the fact remains that it was an heat-of-the-moment response which I've since withdrawn and clarified. There's still shitloads of wrong-headed stuff being posted on here and many left reactions to Israel are absolutely appaling.

You said quite a lot in the heat of that moment.

 

[TopCat]

Well this round of middle east murder games started with a massacre of Israeli civilians. Celebrating their deaths then whining Israel is committing warcrimes is a bit

This round eh?

 

[PTK]

Understanding something isn't the same as supporting it.

If it was, then criminologists could be seen as accessories.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

No, afraid I might have to repeat myself.

as an apologist for war crimes you are constantly repeating yourself: no problem, as your continual lies/evasions/dissimulation here are amplified in the mainstream media. The difference is that here opposing voices are allowed. I must say, your post rate is phenomenal: can't you get your superiors to allocate you some help?

 

[platinumsage]

Actually, I'll have another go at this, not just to needle them. This whole thread has seen numerous attempts to get pro-Palestinian posters to unpick their position, get them to condemn Hamas and the rest. If you think what Israel is currently doing is legitimate, it surely follows that you can respond to the request above. platinumsage ?

Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.

 

[zahir]

Reporting from Gaza.

If we survive the bombs, what will remain of our lives?

My friend, killed in an Israeli airstrike, dreamed of traveling the world with me. We can’t make plans in Gaza when a soldier can turn our future into rubble.

www.972mag.com

 

[belboid]

Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.

it would have been quicker and equally honest to simply write 'I am happy to apologise for war crimes'

 

[Pickman's model]

Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.

I think Ross mcwhirter's longheld proud record of the world's longest shit has just been broken

 

[platinumsage]

Knew ya’ll would love it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Knew ya’ll would love it.

It's really good apart from the words used and the sentiments expressed

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.

as I said: apologist for war crimes. Sent your CV to Regev yet, or are you already on the staff?

 

[PTK]

For me, it's not even about understanding Hamas. It's about understanding how Hamas has gained so much support within Gaza, how it is that Islamists have hijacked another liberation movement.

Yes.

If Hamas had been around in the 1960s, it would have had insignificant support.

I saw an old World In Action documentary about the civil war in Lebanon, made in 1976, and you would never have suspected that ten years later there would be a strong Islamist party in that country. There was no mention whatsoever of political Islam.

What are the social processes that enable certain political movements to become popular?

The failure of secular nationalist and socialist movements to "deliver the goods" for the people of the region created an opportunity for the growth of movements such as Hamas.

 

[two sheds]

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

That also seems to be an end.

And when you say 'pissing about' do you mean taking Palestinian land and the army allowing/encouraging settlers to kill innocent Palestinian civilians and take more land?

Nobody here is trying to excuse what Hamas did by saying they were just 'pissing about'.

 

[Rob Ray]

This might well be an example of the elusive unintended autocritique, a post so manifestly piss-poor that external criticism isn't even necessary.