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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.
I was just saying to a neighbour this morning that this war will always standout as being probably one of the first information free conflicts and we need to wait until the dust has settled from the complete bombing of Gaza to find out what’s been going on .
 
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I'm not actually much of a fan of Knotted's stuff on here, and wouldn't want to speak for them in any case, but I'll note their post was on October 7th while the thread was only talking about the fact of the breakout, before massacres become the news story. So while I'd still disagree with them there (because as was being said at the time, it was going to lead to largely pointless deaths all round and a devastating Israeli response) that particular post can't be linked to delight about either Hamas specifically or civilian murder in particular. It was solely about the act of "prison break".

No this is bollocks. The full facts of what occurred hadn’t come out but at that point it was clear towns were being attacked and civilians being murdered. Details about kidnapping, the music festival other atrocities came out later granted. I know I was reading it at the time and listening to the news.
 
Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.
(((information asymmetry))) :(
 
Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.
Would you be happy with the air force dropping a bomb on the block of flats in which you lived, because the air force believed that a leading figure in an enemy group lived there?

Should the RAF have demolished the Divis Flats in Belfast on the grounds that a number of members of the IRA lived there?

While the IDF and its apologists reassure themselves that it is not "deliberately targeting civilians" that is not how it looks to the poor people who live in the dwellings being demolished.

Furthermore, the definition of "civilian" has been narrowed by the IDF to exclude those involved in the civil administration of the Gaza Strip, as they are members of Hamas.
 
I'm not actually much of a fan of Knotted's stuff on here, and wouldn't want to speak for them in any case, but I'll note their post was on October 7th while the thread was only talking about the fact of the breakout, before massacres become the news story. So while I'd still disagree with them there (because as was being said at the time, it was going to lead to largely pointless deaths all round and a devastating Israeli response) that particular post can't be linked to delight about either Hamas specifically or civilian murder in particular. It was solely about the act of "prison break".
no, he posted this crap on Sunday 22nd. "simple joy".


Knotted said:
Breaking through the wall. An amazing achievement on it's own right.

Taking on and defeating surprised IDF barracks.

Taking hostages. Especially military hostages.

The forlorn hope that there may be military mobilisations (Hizbollah at least) against Israel that would make them compromise in the face of calamity.

There is also the simple joy that the oppressed managed to turn the tables at least for a couple of days. And I know the response is that Hamas are a ruling Islamist party, but I can separate criticism of Hamas domestic rule and military action.

Edit to add: Also that Israel governs by displays of strength against Arabs and Palestinians in particular. This vision of strength was shattered on 7/10.
 
No this is bollocks. The full facts of what occurred hadn’t come out but at that point it was clear towns were being attacked and civilians being murdered. Details about kidnapping, the music festival other atrocities came out later granted. I know I was reading it at the time and listening to the news.
What we "knew" at that point is that attacks were happening. That section of the thread isn't talking about what it entailed, let alone the extent. Given Knotted apologised when that extent was pointed out, a bit of good faith seems to be in order. Unless you were there watching their telly at the time and know otherwise, I suppose.

no, he posted this crap on Sunday 22nd. "simple joy".
That's him describing what he was thinking in his original post, yes.
 
Due to popular demand here you go:

The question kabbes put to me was “What, specifically, you would condemn of Israel’s actions to date?”

Failing to secure their borders while pissing about in the West Bank for a start.

I suppose further condemnations from me are expected, well let me explain. I don’t like to issue condemnations of things unless I can be certain in my own mind that condemnation is warranted. I can condemn Hamas’s torture and killing of civilians including children in part because they videoed it and the evidence is incontrovertible, but also because there is no acceptable rationale for such acts in my mind. When it comes to Israel both the availability of evidence and the presence of possible mitigating factors means I can’t issue further condemnations at this stage. This shouldn’t be taken to mean I think Israel has not committed condemnable acts, but simply reflects the information asymmetry currently present.

For example it’s clear that civilians have been killed but I have no idea whether civilians have been “deliberately targeted”, and by that phrase I mean targeted specifically knowing that they weren’t combatants, or whether they were killed by bombs that were targeting combatants reckless as to whether civilians were endangered, or indeed killed by bombs that were targeting combatants after reasonable measures had been taken to reduce the chance of civilian deaths. I don’t know enough about what’s gone on there to condemn Israeli actions, given that I do not condemn the very idea of a military response targeting Hamas.

Another example is that temporary evacuations of civilians are permitted under international law and even encouraged where they would assist in protecting the civilian population, so I’m not sufficiently convinced at this moment in time that this action is unjustifiable and therefore condemnable because I don’t have access to the reasons for the evacuation, the harm that would be prevented, nor it’s timescale.

This may seem like I’m not condemning both sides equally, and no, I’m not.
When we strip away the 'I don't have all the information' stuff, there's something really clear in here. 'Hamas did something vile, so the IDF can do exactly what they want and I won't condemn it'. AKA, no, there's nothing at all you would criticise the IDF/Israeli state for.
 
That's him describing what he was thinking in his original post, yes.
no, it's him describing what he thinks about the hamas attack 2 weeks after it happened. the 'amazing achievement' and 'simple joy' of an attack which left civilians murdered and hostages taken. you asked for examples, so there's one. shameful. strange to see you still trying to wriggle around defending such an abhorrent post. you normally seem pretty balanced.
 
no, it's him describing what he thinks about the hamas attack 2 weeks after it happened. the 'amazing achievement' and 'simple joy' of an attack which left civilians murdered and hostages taken. you asked for examples, so there's one. shameful. strange to see you still trying to wriggle around defending such an abhorrent post. you normally seem pretty balanced.
It's him replying to a question from Danny about what he was thinking he posted his original post. That question being the bit you clipped out, for some reason:
1698158513360.png
I've already said I'm not a huge fan of his posts, but pretending he's saying one thing when he's actually saying something else there is not really on. Especially when what he's actually saying, at that point, four posts prior, is this:

1698158865916.png
 
If this is the sum of the good faith we can scrape together on a web forum mostly composed of people many, many miles away from the site of conflict, then it's going to be a desperate uphill battle for those in the midst of it, steeped in the history of the whole deadly shambolic saga. :(

Maybe a moratorium on beating each other with posts made in moments of stress many pages back?
 
It's him replying to a question from Danny about what he was thinking he posted his original post. That question being the bit you clipped out, for some reason:
View attachment 396907
I've already said I'm not a huge fan of his posts, but pretending he's saying one thing when he's actually saying something else there is not really on. Especially when he's saying, four posts above that one:

View attachment 396908
I think that's a cop-out. not sure why he's getting a pass. But I will leave it there. (I just quoted, didn't clip anything deliberately - that's what the site did.)
 
For me, it's not even about understanding Hamas. It's about understanding how Hamas has gained so much support within Gaza, how it is that Islamists have hijacked another liberation movement.

Corruption and failure of the alternatives, including the collapse of cold war and arab nationalism dynamics and the countries and individuals that funded secular movements as part of that. New funding from overseas on top of other forms of support from certain other countries including those that support the likes of the Muslim Brotherhood in other conflicts and proxy wars. The use of funds to support charity, welfare, public services.

Plus in the case of Hamas, winning an election and the western response to them winning that election, enabling their power to become entrenched in Gaza. Very much including a brief civil war/violent power struggle in Gaza which, according to some leaked diplomatic cables years ago, might have been sparked by western attempts to undermine Hamas in the area, a plan that was preempted and backfired.
 
When we strip away the 'I don't have all the information' stuff, there's something really clear in here. 'Hamas did something vile, so the IDF can do exactly what they want and I won't condemn it'. AKA, no, there's nothing at all you would criticise the IDF/Israeli state for.

Given that condemnations of Hamas were widely regarded as unnecessary earlier on this thread, I’m surprised you draw such a conclusion from my post.
 

Labour asks Parliament to edit out Eshalomi’s call for Gaza ceasefire​

It feels to me like someone in Labour PR has just gone DON'T SAY ANYTHING CRITICISING ISRAEL OR THE MAIL WILL BE CALLING US ANTISEMITES AGAIN which is unhelpful. Both of Labour and the Mail and it's ilk.

So sick of us being used as Labour kryptonite by people who don't actually give a shit for us.
 
When we strip away the 'I don't have all the information' stuff, there's something really clear in here. 'Hamas did something vile, so the IDF can do exactly what they want and I won't condemn it'. AKA, no, there's nothing at all you would criticise the IDF/Israeli state for.
And this isn't about trying to squeeze out a form of words or trap you platinumsage . You've got sympathies with Israel, which is fine, of course. It's about whether you can offer a decent response to a situation of mutual horrors. Where the atrocities of the 7th October fit into a bigger and longer history of horrors and injustice.
 
And this isn't about trying to squeeze out a form of words or trap you platinumsage . You've got sympathies with Israel, which is fine, of course. It's about whether you can offer a decent response to a situation of mutual horrors. Where the atrocities of the 7th October fit into a bigger and longer history of horrors and injustice.

Well yes, people started to talk about history on this thread but it was suggested we should stick to current events as they happen, hence the level of discussion.
 
Well yes, people started to talk about history on this thread but it was suggested we should stick to current events as they happen, hence the level of discussion.

Maybe ongoing news vs. the political backdrop and history should have different threads?
 
When we strip away the 'I don't have all the information' stuff, there's something really clear in here. 'Hamas did something vile, so the IDF can do exactly what they want and I won't condemn it'. AKA, no, there's nothing at all you would criticise the IDF/Israeli state for.
I think there's also the point that there is clear evidence that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing and war crimes, and saying that it is unclear is really making a choice to not see it.

Edit to add:

I liked this article by Owen Jones


If I knew then what I know now. For many of the guilty men and women who plunged Iraq into blood and chaos, this became something of a stock phrase. When, in 2004, the then Tory leader, Michael Howard, was asked if he would still have supported the British government’s motion backing the war – only 16 Conservative MPs rebelled a year earlier – he replied: “If I knew then what I know now, that would have caused a difficulty. I couldn’t have voted for that resolution.” “If I knew then what I know now, I would not have voted that way,” protested Hillary Clinton during her doomed first campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination. “If I knew then what I knew now, I wouldn’t have voted for it,” said Labour’s then deputy leader, Harriet Harman, a few weeks later.

Prepare yourself for the revival of this phrase. As the calamity of Israel’s onslaught against Gaza becomes apparent, those who cheered it on will panic about reputational damage and plead their earlier ignorance. Do not let them get away with it this time.

The claim was nonsense even in the context of the Iraq cataclysm. As the Chilcot inquiry later concluded, Blair was warned that an invasion “would increase the threat from al-Qaida” and other groups. As a result, the inquiry did “not agree that hindsight is required”, noting that everything from “internal strife in Iraq” to Iranian intervention to the rise of al-Qaida was “explicitly identified” before the war. Warnings of the disaster to come were not confined to private intelligence briefings to Blair. From the lack of weapons of mass destruction – as former foreign secretary Robin Cook detailed in his resignation speech – to violent strife to a boost for al-Qaida, the coming disaster was widely predicted in public. There was no shortage of evidence to justify the then-secretary general of the Arab League warning that the war would “open the gates of hell”.

In the aftermath of Hamas’s unjustifiable atrocity, Israel’s military onslaught has already slaughtered thousands of civilians, many of them children. That the worst is to come is not supposition, but evident from the public pronouncements of Israel’s political leaders. They have made no effort to disguise their intentions, and thus they have left their cheerleaders with nowhere to hide, no ignorance to plead. “The emphasis is on damage, not accuracy,” declared the Israel Defence Forces (IDF). “Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents,” said one IDF official, adding, “There will be no buildings.” Israel’s economy minister, Nir Barkat, told ABC News that hostages and civilian casualties will be secondary to destroying Hamas, “even if takes a year”.

One prominent supporter of Keir Starmer on Labour’s national executive committee claimed that Israel was not in breach of international law on the grounds that its actions were “proportionate”, and that the “command structure involves sign-off by lawyers to ensure conformity with intl law for all IDF actions”. So let’s hear from one such lawyer, Israel’s former chief military advocate general and the country’s former attorney general no less, who declared that to destroy Hamas “then you have to destroy Gaza, because everything in Gaza, almost every building there, is a stronghold of Hamas”.

Israel is dropping leaflets on northern Gaza warning that civilians who remain there may be considered an “accomplice in a terrorist organisation”, self-evidently arguing that non-combatants can be considered fair game. Leaving aside that southern Gaza is itself being bombed, contrary to Israeli claims that it’s a safe zone, and that many are unable to flee – not least the injured and infirm – this is a public confession of what could amount to future war crimes.

When the supposed relative “moderate” foreign minister, Eli Cohen, declares that Gaza’s territory will shrink thanks to Israeli annexation, he is simply stating a longstanding open Israeli commitment. After all, when Tzipi Hotovely, Israel’s ambassador to the UK, declares her support for Israel’s territory compromising the biblical territory of Judea and Samaria – that is, the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip – she merely echoes Netanyahu’s promoting a map of “Greater Israel” before the UN.

From collective punishment – by depriving innocent people of water, food, energy and medicine – to indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, there are no excuses. The UN is warning of “mass ethnic cleansing”, has denounced “crimes against humanity” and is even arguing that “there is a risk of genocide” against the Palestinians. A ground invasion has not even begun, but what will happen next is clear. So here is a prediction. As it is, just 3% of Britons say there “definitely should not be an immediate ceasefire”, the same proportion as those who believe the Earth is flat. As the atrocities mount, the public mood will be a mixture of horror and fury at those complicit in one of the great crimes of our time.

Last week, the former foreign secretary Jack Straw conceded the Iraq war was “in retrospect, a mistake – I mean there’s no question about that”, with a casual tone more befitting someone who took the wrong turn off a motorway than someone who played a leading role in a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people. Expect the same tone from those who justify this ongoing massacre. “If I knew then what I know now”, or words to that effect, will accompany their statements of regret. But they do know now: there are no grounds for ignorance, and those complicit deserve nothing but contempt and moral disgrace.
 
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What we "knew" at that point is that attacks were happening. That section of the thread isn't talking about what it entailed, let alone the extent. Given Knotted apologised when that extent was pointed out, a bit of good faith seems to be in order. Unless you were there watching their telly at the time and know otherwise, I suppose.

No, wrong again. We knew attacks were happening on civilions. He had the same access to the news as me. If for some reason hadn't got a news site open, the radio or TV on, it's written in the fucking OP. The extent of the atrocities has been revealed subsequently but no one posting that weekend was ignorant to the fact civilions were being killed.

I'm not interested in arguing with him about it, his reaction is what it was. he's rowed back a bit as more stuff has come out sure. But when it's claimed no one here was celebrating Hamas actions and evidence is presented, it looks at best daft to try denying it and maybe a bit weasily.

And since this started out of an exchange with PS, re potential Israelly war crimes, I'll state my view in case I'm accused of being one sided. if cutting off power, water, food to a civilion population isn't technically a war crime, then fuck the lawyers.
 
Maybe ongoing news vs. the political backdrop and history should have different threads?

It would be nice, but such threads tend to be ignored. For example “The long term causes of war in Ukraine” thread has 29 posts in 18 months compared to 27,000 for the main thread of mostly one-liners.

I’d start such a thread myself but would no doubt be accused of having ulterior motives by planetgeli again. :rolleyes:
 
She said he was hit with sticks during the journey into Gaza, and suffered bruises and breathing difficulties.

...There, they each had a guard and access to a paramedic and doctor.
She described clean conditions inside, with mattresses on the floor for them to sleep on. Another captive who was badly injured in a motorbike accident on the way into Gaza was treated for his injuries by a doctor.
"They made sure we wouldn't get sick, and we had a doctor with us every two or three days."
She also said they had access to medicines they needed and there were women there who knew about "feminine hygiene".
They ate the same food - pitta bread with cheese and cucumber - as the Hamas guards, her daughter Sharone added.

Asked by a reporter why she had shaken hands with the gunman, Ms Lifschitz said the hostage takers had treated her well and the remaining hostages were in good condition.


It does look like hostages are being treated well after a horrific first day.
 
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