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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

The Nakba is I would have thought accepted as historical fact now

Whatever ones views are the basic historical facts are that Palestinians were forcibly expelled from their land. The belated attempt by Arab states was to little to late.

When I was a kid, I was sent to a Zionist Youth Group (as did most UK-Jewish kids of my era, there were lots of different groups appealing to different demographics). I can remember being told in all seriousness that the Nakba was a fiction. Made up by Arabists and antisemites as of course Zionists would be far too honourable to commit atrocities. Palestinians went of there own accord etc. etc. I am ashamed to admit that, at the time, I believed them. Now the same people who denied the Nakba are calling for a Second Nakba.

I wonder what other lies are being told to justify further atrocities.
 
When I was a kid, I was sent to a Zionist Youth Group (as did most UK-Jewish kids of my era, there were lots of different groups appealing to different demographics). I can remember being told in all seriousness that the Nakba was a fiction. Made up by Arabists and antisemites as of course Zionists would be far too honourable to commit atrocities. Palestinians went of there own accord etc. etc. I am ashamed to admit that, at the time, I believed them. Now the same people who denied the Nakba are calling for a Second Nakba.

I wonder what other lies are being told to justify further atrocities.
I don’t think anyone should be ashamed of believing what they are told when they are young.
 
Hopefully there is more movement in that direction - the EU Foriegn Ministers meeting today has apparently reached consensus over a humanitarian pause, the reconnection of electricity supplies and has increased the amount of aid given. It is nowhere near enough, but its better than what VDL was offering and hopefully it can lead to better things.
Which has no possibility of going anywhere without the support of the US and it's ability to exert influence over Israel. There is probably more chance that the EU can get the US on board than the Arab leaders meeting in Cairo could but so long as the US says no then the answer is still no.
At the end of the day, the European nations and especially the UK need a good working relationship with the US more than they need to save the lives of Palestinians so any diplomatic options have to live within that restriction. This is pretty awful and cynical the more you think about it but there we are.
U75 has probably reached a consensus on humanitarian aid, a ceasefire and turning the leccy on long before EU foreign ministers did but the only advantage they have over us is their consensus will get reported.
 
When I was a kid, I was sent to a Zionist Youth Group (as did most UK-Jewish kids of my era, there were lots of different groups appealing to different demographics). I can remember being told in all seriousness that the Nakba was a fiction. Made up by Arabists and antisemites as of course Zionists would be far too honourable to commit atrocities. Palestinians went of there own accord etc. etc. I am ashamed to admit that, at the time, I believed them. Now the same people who denied the Nakba are calling for a Second Nakba.

I wonder what other lies are being told to justify further atrocities.
When trying to construct any kind of moral or political response to these events, to recent events, to decades of events, I find them all rattling around within the reality of the Nakba. There are longer historical tragedies, of antisemitism, of pogroms, of so many other things, but this is the reality of decades of power and imposition. The 7th October was a true horror and, to be honest, me trying to come up with a 'position' on it is neither here nor there. But I'll condemn it, of course I will. But, that word again, even the 7th October came out of something. It wasn't some clockwork agency free unfolding of the Nakba, horrible choices were made, but the clearance of villages, withholding of resources, vastly unequal death ratios, limiting of lives, yes, apartheid has brought us to this point. At a human level, I feel just as much sympathy for victims on both sides, but can't say the same when it comes to the wider reality. :(

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you, I just locked onto the Nakba point. And I can't claim to be saying anything significant, just trying to work out how to nest an obvious sense of horror and despair within the, for want of a better term, bigger picture.
 
A freeze? A fucking freeze of settlements? They killed all those people for a mere freeze?

The Israeli government have this year twice (in the talks at Aqaba and Sharm-el-Shaikh) publicly committed to freezes in new settlement construction, and both times went home and insisted they hadn't promised anything of the sort.
They promised in both cases not to change the status quo of the Holy Sites too, and in the later meeting (in March) the talks "emphasized the necessity of both Israelis and Palestinians to actively prevent any actions that would disrupt the sanctity of these sites, inter alia during the upcoming Holy Month of Ramadan, which coincides with Easter and Passover this year".

The National Security Minister Ben-Gvir went to the Temple Mount less than two months later, and in a proclamation for the ages pronounced that “All of the threats from Hamas don’t matter. We are in charge in Jerusalem and in all of the Land of Israel,”. He also called for more settlement construction.
 
Which has no possibility of going anywhere without the support of the US and it's ability to exert influence over Israel. There is probably more chance that the EU can get the US on board than the Arab leaders meeting in Cairo could but so long as the US says no then the answer is still no.
At the end of the day, the European nations and especially the UK need a good working relationship with the US more than they need to save the lives of Palestinians so any diplomatic options have to live within that restriction. This is pretty awful and cynical the more you think about it but there we are.
U75 has probably reached a consensus on humanitarian aid, a ceasefire and turning the leccy on long before EU foreign ministers did but the only advantage they have over us is their consensus will get reported.
I don't see any international lead in ending this coming from either the US or Europe. Need to look elsewhere.
 
The Israeli government have this year twice (in the talks at Aqaba and Sharm-el-Shaikh) publicly committed to freezes in new settlement construction, and both times went home and insisted they hadn't promised anything of the sort.
They promised in both cases not to change the status quo of the Holy Sites too, and in the later meeting (in March) the talks "emphasized the necessity of both Israelis and Palestinians to actively prevent any actions that would disrupt the sanctity of these sites, inter alia during the upcoming Holy Month of Ramadan, which coincides with Easter and Passover this year".

The National Security Minister Ben-Gvir went to the Temple Mount less than two months later, and in a proclamation for the ages pronounced that “All of the threats from Hamas don’t matter. We are in charge in Jerusalem and in all of the Land of Israel,”. He also called for more settlement construction.
Thanks for the response, I was unaware of those charming episodes. Even from a purely pragmatic, how do the Israelis not see that acting like a bunch of liars and frauds who consistently say one thing and do another is not going to pay off in the long run?
 
Thanks for the response, I was unaware of those charming episodes. Even from a purely pragmatic, how do the Israelis not see that acting like a bunch of liars and frauds who consistently say one thing and do another is not going to pay off in the long run?

And yet despite repeatedly demonstrating what unreliable partners they are, look at the unequivocal backing they receive from western govts (and our opposition here in the UK). It's incredibly depressing.
 
Thanks for the response, I was unaware of those charming episodes. Even from a purely pragmatic, how do the Israelis not see that acting like a bunch of liars and frauds who consistently say one thing and do another is not going to pay off in the long run?
It's partly due to the make-up of the current government. I don't know who promised the settlement freeze, but it won't have been Ben-Gvir, who is a very deeply unpleasant, racist extremist.

UK equivalent would be Nick Griffin as Home Secretary. Maybe. Griffin's actually a bit too wet.
 
Thanks for the response, I was unaware of those charming episodes. Even from a purely pragmatic, how do the Israelis not see that acting like a bunch of liars and frauds who consistently say one thing and do another is not going to pay off in the long run?

I think "Israelis" is a bit wide of the mark, the problem is with the political leadership and its instability.

The first communique probably was negotiated by sensible people - it was only a freeze for a few months after all - and had the PM's approval, but when the far right heard about it they went mad, and as the government collapses without them it was torn up before the day was out.
 
I think "Israelis" is a bit wide of the mark, the problem is with the political leadership and its instability.

The first communique probably was negotiated by sensible people - it was only a freeze for a few months after all - and had the PM's approval, but when the far right heard about it they went mad, and as the government collapses without them it was torn up before the day was out.
The trouble is exactly that - the far right can call the shots, and leave the sensible people in the dust.
 
It's partly due to the make-up of the current government. I don't know who promised the settlement freeze, but it won't have been Ben-Gvir, who is a very deeply unpleasant, racist extremist.

UK equivalent would be Nick Griffin as Home Secretary. Maybe. Griffin's actually a bit too wet.
A profile of Ben-Gvir in The New Yorker:


a snippet:

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British intelligence confirms their judgment is the Gaza hospital blast was from a middle or part of one that came from inside OTP.
Well... if you look at what was actually said, it's that it likely was from a Palestinian rocket. Gaza hospital blast caused by militants’ rocket, UK agencies believe and likely doesn't bear as much weight as you'd like to place on it. There's quite a literature on the conveying of uncertainty in intelligence analysis, you might enjoy reading some of it. As an example Assessing Uncertainty in Intelligence
 
Her party, the NDP, initially supported Jama after the Conservative-led parliament voted to censure her, but they apparently lost their backbones after she made this follow-up statement today:

"I ground my words in the realities of Israeli apartheid, and Israel’s ongoing domination and occupation of Palestinian lands. Governments and institutions in Canada are trying to use their weight to silence us, to silence workers, students, educators, and peace-loving people who dare to support Palestine. To every person taking risks to speak up for Palestinian dignity and safety, I see you, I hear you, and I am with you.”
 
You support customer service personnel spouting their political beliefs to captive audiences?
I don't think it was a great idea, though they did it knowing that the majority on the train were pro-Palestine. Probably best if tfl ease past this and let the driver get off with a warning.

Also, I do wonder if the driver would have been suspended if it had been pro-Israeli sentiments. As in I genuinely don't know, but suspect it might have been treated differently given the government's own position,
 
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