Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Pickman's model]

Well it's hardly been the dominating discourse has it, given how many unambiguous civilians were unambiguously tortured and murdered?

usually on threads you're expected to answer a question before you ask one. but i suppose you're playing platinumsage rules.

 

[Raheem]

Concerning the militarisation of Israeli society this pic is from 2018. To say it's somewhat disturbing is a bit of an understatement imo:
View attachment 396777

source

See. Babies are not always civilians.

 

[PTK]

I see where you're coming from but I don't think this is as stark a line as you're claiming. It was in the context of the 1947 UN partition which wasn't accepted by the neighbouring Arab states who opposed a 2-state solution and then invaded. Before that of course you have things like the Hebron massacre and increasing Jewish/Arab violence in the decades prior to the Balfour declaration.

The notion that Israel rocked up in 1948 and just chucked out the Palestinians because colonialism or whatever isn't really a sound basis on which to view morality in the current conflict.

Did the Zionists leaders accept the partition plan?
Would they really have been happy with a 45% Arab minority in their state?

 

[Wilf]

I see where you're coming from but I don't think this is as stark a line as you're claiming. It was in the context of the 1947 UN partition which wasn't accepted by the neighbouring Arab states who opposed a 2-state solution and then invaded. Before that of course you have things like the Hebron massacre and increasing Jewish/Arab violence in the decades prior to the Balfour declaration.

The notion that Israel rocked up in 1948 and just chucked out the Palestinians because colonialism or whatever isn't really a sound basis on which to view morality in the current conflict.

No, of course, it wasn't at that point it wasn't just Israel rocking up. British government and League of Nations (UNited Nations by then, iirc?) were central.

 

[Gramsci]

I see where you're coming from but I don't think this is as stark a line as you're claiming. It was in the context of the 1947 UN partition which wasn't accepted by the neighbouring Arab states who opposed a 2-state solution and then invaded. Before that of course you have things like the Hebron massacre and increasing Jewish/Arab violence in the decades prior to the Balfour declaration.

The notion that Israel rocked up in 1948 and just chucked out the Palestinians because colonialism or whatever isn't really a sound basis on which to view morality in the current conflict.

Sorry but this is historically wrong.

For instance Jordan came to unofficial agreement with Zionists to get the West bank for Jordan. In return the King would not oppose Zionists outside that area.

The ethnic cleansing started before any major Arab involvement.

The Nakba is I would have thought accepted as historical fact now

Whatever ones views are the basic historical facts are that Palestinians were forcibly expelled from their land. The belated attempt by Arab states was to little to late.

 

[Knotted]

It was the UN as in UN partition plan.

 

[Knotted]

The history stuff is probably worth getting into on another thread tbh. The context for the current conflict (not a great word to describe it, I know) is ongoing injustice and misery some of which is rooted in the events of 1947/8 some of which are much more recent. It's not about strictly past injustices.

 

[platinumsage]

The history stuff is probably worth getting into on another thread tbh. The context for the current conflict (not a great word to describe it, I know) is ongoing injustice and misery some of which is rooted in the events of 1947/8 some of which are much more recent. It's not about strictly past injustices.

The problem is that when we start with 7th October people say it wasn't an attack followed by a defensive response because past injustices. So you can't really just discuss the current conflict.

 

[Pickman's model]

perhaps it's time for the former colonial powers to intervene

 

[not-bono-ever]

You know what kids, it is possible to see the whole picture without doubling down on some kind of dead baby one upmanship.

/ getting old

 

[not-bono-ever]

perhaps it's time for the former colonial powers to intervene

At last. The voice of practical reason

 

[Knotted]

The problem is that when we start with 7th October people say it wasn't an attack followed by a defensive response because past injustices. So you can't really just discuss the current conflict.

Please stop saying past injustices. On 6th October 2.2 million people were living in an open air prison the conditions (as of 2018) were described in this UN report.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/gaza-unliveable-un-special-rapporteur-for-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-opt-tells-third-committee-press-release-excerpts/

 

[Pickman's model]

At last. The voice of practical reason

countries including italy, turkey, france and britain can - i'm sure - offer a multinational force pending a conference to resolve matters

 

[Gramsci]

Another march next Saturday.

I don't know if I've the stamina for another one if it's wet again.

This one's Victoria Embankment. Can't remember route where marches go from there

Forecast says dry in London.

 

[PTK]

countries including italy, turkey, france and britain can - i'm sure - offer a multinational force pending a conference to resolve matters

Yes, France and the USA could send in the marines, like they did in Beirut in 1982. That went well.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, France and the USA could send in the marines, like they did in Beirut in 1982. That went well.

as i noted in post 735

 

[PTK]

as i noted in post 735

"as i noted in post 735" could be your catchphrase.

 

[Pickman's model]

"as i noted in post 735" could be your catchphrase.

i'll certainly consider it

 

[PTK]

.

 

[Idris2002]

You know what kids, it is possible to see the whole picture without doubling down on some kind of dead baby one upmanship.

/ getting old

The politics of the last atrocity. . . results in more atrocities.

It's the thirtieth anniversary of the Shankill road bomb around now. Which means pretty soon it will be the thirtieth anniversary of the Greysteel massacre.

 

[PTK]

The politics of the last atrocity. . . results in more atrocities.

It's the thirtieth anniversary of the Shankill road bomb around now. Which means pretty soon it will be the thirtieth anniversary of the Greysteel massacre.

I know of a couple of “buts” that could be added to an account of both those atrocities.

 

[Idris2002]

Has HAMAS actually issued any demands by the way, like end the blockade of gaza, or settlers out of the WB, or even mad "vegetable rights and peace" stuff?

 

[Idris2002]

I know of a couple of “buts” that could be added to an account of both those atrocities.

THAT'S TEH JOKE

 

[PTK]

Has HAMAS actually issued any demands by the way, like end the blockade of gaza, or settlers out of the WB, or even mad "vegetable rights and peace" stuff?

“Their initial demands included the release of all those captured since Friday and hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli jails. They also want a freeze on Jewish settlements in the West Bank and international guarantees that Israel will not launch a ground offensive in Gaza.”

Hamas's demands and Israel's insistence on severe punishment stymie Cairo's bid to end war

 

[Gramsci]

Did the Zionists leaders accept the partition plan?
Would they really have been happy with a 45% Arab minority in their state?

Formally they accepted.

However they set out to expel the Palestinians from the land that was to be Israeli state. Palestinian villages/ towns had a wait and see what happens to the partition. They didn't really believe Haganah and Irgun para militaries ( IDF did not exist yet) would brutally expell them until it was to late.

So no Zionists weren't happy with the percentage of Arabs they would have had in their borders and set about remedying that fact. Starting before the Mandate ended.

 

[MickiQ]

Britain and France aren't really colonial powers anymore though. The only external power that has any weight to it is the good ol' USA and that (odd call for restraint notwithstanding) remains unashamedly pro-Israel. I wouldn't want to detract from Rishi Sevenbins from being anything other than a weasly little cunt but realistically for Western European nations this has brought the current realities of the world into sharp focus. The only two positions that can be taken is to broadly support the US position (whilst pretending we're adding our own spin) or just being completely irrelevant.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Britain and France aren't really colonial powers anymore though. The only external power that has any weight to it is the good ol' USA and that (odd call for restraint notwithstanding) remains unashamedly pro-Israel. I wouldn't want to detract from Rishi Sevenbins from being anything other than a weasly little cunt but realistically for Western European nations this has brought the current realities of the world into sharp focus. The only two positions that can be taken is to broadly support the US position (whilst pretending we're adding our own spin) or just being completely irrelevant.

Or oppose US policy diplomatically, provide more aid, bolster those few voices in the Middle East with something positive to propose. Even being irrelevant is better than being complicit.

 

[Idris2002]

“Their initial demands included the release of all those captured since Friday and hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli jails. They also want a freeze on Jewish settlements in the West Bank and international guarantees that Israel will not launch a ground offensive in Gaza.”

Hamas's demands and Israel's insistence on severe punishment stymie Cairo's bid to end war

A freeze? A fucking freeze of settlements? They killed all those people for a mere freeze?

 

[PTK]

Or oppose US policy diplomatically, provide more aid, bolster those few voices in the Middle East with something positive to propose. Even being irrelevant is better than being complicit.

And not supply arms to Israel.

 

[agricola]

Or oppose US policy diplomatically, provide more aid, bolster those few voices in the Middle East with something positive to propose. Even being irrelevant is better than being complicit.

Hopefully there is more movement in that direction - the EU Foriegn Ministers meeting today has apparently reached consensus over a humanitarian pause, the reconnection of electricity supplies and has increased the amount of aid given. It is nowhere near enough, but its better than what VDL was offering and hopefully it can lead to better things.