Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Johnny Vodka]

Response from my local SNP MP to the MAP template I filled out & emailed.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

But there is a divide right? Even if some civilians might have some sort of quasi-military role? Babies are still civilians, right?

If there‘s still a divide you’re really just arguing about numbers, rather than the very concept of the civilian in Israeli society.

Just to check my facts here, are Palestinian babies civilians?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

You urbanites sure are a contentious people.

I remember this when it was all fields of…Dissensus…

 

[JimW]

You can't be contentious without being content.

 

[platinumsage]

Just to check my facts here, are Palestinian babies civilians?

Of course.

Although you'd better ask Pickman's that, as he seems to think in some societies where there is militarisation, it's complicated. If he thinks the "civilian distinction is being promoted by the zionists and their allies as part of their propaganda" in Israel I'd assume he thinks that such a distinction is also being propagandised by Hamas and friends.

 

[Cloo]

Just had my first incidence online of having to point out to well-meaning person, no don't cite Neturei Karta while trying to be supportive of Jewish people in general.

NB, they are the ultra-Orthodox people who burn Israeli flags but also align themselves with various antisemites because they believe only God can create the true state of Israel once the Messiah comes.

 

[pug]

"I'm not trying to trap you I'm just kind of in a way does it not illustrate the cycle of violence that that will continue in perpetuity until until until a solution is found"

Bbc radio presenter

 

[Spymaster]

Just to check my facts here, are Palestinian babies civilians?

All Palestinians are civilians who have been forced to do unspeakable things by the Israelis, so they're alright.

All Israelis are murderers.

 

[kabbes]

All Palestinians are civilians who have been forced to do unspeakable things by the Israelis, so they're alright.

All Israelis are murderers.

Blimey, you’ve changed your tune.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

All Palestinians are civilians who have been forced to do unspeakable things by the Israelis, so they're alright.

All Israelis are murderers.

I’m sorry, what?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Of course.

Although you'd better ask Pickman's that, as he seems to think in some societies where there is militarisation, it's complicated. If he thinks the "civilian distinction is being promoted by the zionists and their allies as part of their propaganda" in Israel I'd assume he thinks that such a distinction is also being propagandised by Hamas and friends.

So the killing of thousands of Palestinian kids is as awful as the killing of Israeli kids by Hamas. At last we're getting somewhere.

 

[TopCat]

You’re a fucking atrocity denying cunt. Fuck you.

You are firmly down
In the dirt yourself.

 

[Wilf]

I supposed you might have thought more broadly about the Jewish experience from then right up to 1945, and then considered how that has shaped the current situation and mindset of many of the Jews alive today in Israel. But no, keep your cut-off at 1948 and make sure you try not sympathise with both sides, I'm sure that will help you "think about some way out of this fucked up situation".

I do sympathise with both sides, of course. I've described the attacks of 7th October as hideous. And whatever the blurred line between settlers and military, I don't regard the people who were murdered as legitimate targets. At all.

Was the foundation of the state of Israel a random choice of date by me? No, I don't think so. The expulsion of the Palestinians and everything that has followed created a concrete reality, one that exists to this day. The mindset of Jewish people and the state of Israel and the experiences of the Holocaust are obvious and central, of course. But does a 'mindset' excuse decades of death and control? There are multiple wrongs and narratives in this conflict, but the one imposed on the Palestinians for the last 80 years is a cause of untold misery and a denial of the most basic components of a decent life.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

All Palestinians are civilians who have been forced to do unspeakable things by the Israelis, so they're alright.

All Israelis are murderers.

If that was an attempt at summarising my point of view then it failed abysmally, as you would see if you bothered to read my posts, and inwardly digest. Of course, if it was just a throw away irrelevant remark then we can all ignore it.

 

[platinumsage]

So the killing of thousands of Palestinian kids is as awful as the killing of Israeli kids by Hamas. At last we're getting somewhere.

No we’re not getting anywhere, we’re back to dead children bingo again. Anything to avoid addressing claims that civilian status in Israel is being propagandised I guess.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

No we’re not getting anywhere, we’re back dead children bingo again. Anything to avoid addressing claims that civilian status in Israel is being propagandised I guess.

Both sides in conflict propagandise stuff.

 

[platinumsage]

I do sympathise with both sides, of course. I've described the attacks of 7th October as hideous. And whatever the blurred line between settlers and military, I don't regard the people who were murdered as legitimate targets. At all.

Was the foundation of the state of Israel a random choice of date by me? No, I don't think so. The expulsion of the Palestinians and everything that has followed created a concrete reality, one that exists to this day. The mindset of Jewish people and the state of Israel and the experiences of the Holocaust are obvious and central, of course. But does a 'mindset' excuse decades of death and control? There are multiple wrongs and narratives in this conflict, but the one imposed on the Palestinians for the last 80 years is a cause of untold misery and a denial of the most basic components of a decent life.

Referring back to your original post, it seems you still think one side in this current event has an excuse for their actions, i.e. a “but”, and the other side doesn’t. So contrary to the typical western government view that Israel has the moral high ground because it is defending itself, your position doesn’t fall in between but takes the opposing view that Hamas‘s actions have the moral high ground due to past oppressions?

 

[Rob Ray]

Of course.

Although you'd better ask Pickman's that, as he seems to think in some societies where there is militarisation, it's complicated. If he thinks the "civilian distinction is being promoted by the zionists and their allies as part of their propaganda" in Israel I'd assume he thinks that such a distinction is also being propagandised by Hamas and friends.

You know perfectly well he's not referring to babies when he's saying it's complicated, he was making a reasonable point that there are greyer areas where it comes to Israeli society than we'd think of when it comes to UK civilians because of conscription and paramilitarism on the borders. You can disagree with that, or suggest the converse that the existence of grey areas is being used as a shield against criticism of civilian killings, but you can do so without this fucking stupid "he thinks babies are soldiers" shite.

 

[PTK]

.

 

[Wilf]

Referring back to your original post, it seems you still think one side in this current event has an excuse for their actions, i.e. a “but”, and the other side doesn’t. So contrary to the typical western government view that Israel has the moral high ground because it is defending itself, your position doesn’t fall in between but takes the opposing view that Hamas‘s actions have the moral high ground due to past oppressions?

I'd go with 'horrible inevitability' rather than justified. I'd say context rather than excuse. I'd say Palestinians have the right to fight back and I'd hope - sat here in the West - that was aimed at military targets, but then that's not always going to happen is it? Sometimes fucked up situations produce (hideous) fucked up responses. Which, I don't excuse. It's a situation of absolute rights and wrongs - the attacks of the 7th October and the rockets falling on Gaza and the rest are absolutely wrong. But then it's not reducible to those rights and wrongs, it's not a situation where right is likely to prevail because it's set in a long history of wrongs. And whilst you can reset all that history and context back to any significant moment in time, the expulsion of the Palestinians is the absolute foreground, the reality, the thing that has fucked up the lives of the Palestinians.

 

[strung out]

You are firmly down
In the dirt yourself.

For calling out atrocity deniers and Hamas defenders? Proud to be there if that’s what you see it as.

(And fwiw I’ve repeatedly called the Israeli government and the IDF evil/despicable for their actions historically and recently).

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course.

Although you'd better ask Pickman's that, as he seems to think in some societies where there is militarisation, it's complicated. If he thinks the "civilian distinction is being promoted by the zionists and their allies as part of their propaganda" in Israel I'd assume he thinks that such a distinction is also being propagandised by Hamas and friends.

yeh in some societies it is more complex than is the position here. where israel conscripts almost all groups in comparison to the all-volunteer force of the uk or us, and demands former conscripts remain on the reserve list, there is a blurring between the civilian and the military. for me, many of the deaths in israel a couple of weeks back were more akin to the deaths of off-duty udr soldiers in the six counties rather than the killings of civilians. the way in which the israeli government has now distributed weapons to a great number of their population blurs matters further. it's not 'everyone who isn't in the army is a civilian', as it is here. there are armed 'civilian security squads' or the civil guard - Israel arms civilian security squads, fearing internal strife. are they civilians? not armed by the government they're not imo. but hey if you want to actually discuss it then have at it.

 

[Flavour]

It seems like the pressure from within Israeli society to focus on freeing hostages is a big contributing factor to the delay to ground invasion. Such an invasion will lead to hostage executions. Not sure any of the apparent hostage executions talked about further up thread are actually verified tbh. I'm certainly not watching any videos or even looking at any pics. Still far too scarred from the ISIS stuff.

 

[platinumsage]

yeh in some societies it is more complex than is the position here. where israel conscripts almost all groups in comparison to the all-volunteer force of the uk or us, and demands former conscripts remain on the reserve list, there is a blurring between the civilian and the military. for me, many of the deaths in israel a couple of weeks back were more akin to the deaths of off-duty udr soldiers in the six counties rather than the killings of civilians. the way in which the israeli government has now distributed weapons to a great number of their population blurs matters further. it's not 'everyone who isn't in the army is a civilian', as it is here. there are armed 'civilian security squads' or the civil guard - Israel arms civilian security squads, fearing internal strife. are they civilians? not armed by the government they're not imo. but hey if you want to actually discuss it then have at it.

Can you explain how you think this has been propagandised by Israel? For example have they claimed that attacks purely on civilian security guards and not actual civilians are attacks on civilians?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you explain how you think this has been propagandised by Israel? For example have they claimed that attacks purely on civilian security guards and not actual civilians are attacks on civilians?

yes

 

[teqniq]

Concerning the militarisation of Israeli society this pic is from 2018. To say it's somewhat disturbing is a bit of an understatement imo:


source

 

[dylanredefined]

yeh in some societies it is more complex than is the position here. where israel conscripts almost all groups in comparison to the all-volunteer force of the uk or us, and demands former conscripts remain on the reserve list, there is a blurring between the civilian and the military. for me, many of the deaths in israel a couple of weeks back were more akin to the deaths of off-duty udr soldiers in the six counties rather than the killings of civilians. the way in which the israeli government has now distributed weapons to a great number of their population blurs matters further. it's not 'everyone who isn't in the army is a civilian', as it is here. there are armed 'civilian security squads' or the civil guard - Israel arms civilian security squads, fearing internal strife. are they civilians? not armed by the government they're not imo. but hey if you want to actually discuss it then have at it.

Well, I guess the IDF can claim anyone in Gaza supported Hamas somehow. If you target killing you might have a point if you attack a musical festival on the grounds that there is bound to be a conscript there it's not quite the same.

 

[Idris2002]

It seems like the pressure from within Israeli society to focus on freeing hostages is a big contributing factor to the delay to ground invasion. Such an invasion will lead to hostage executions. Not sure any of the apparent hostage executions talked about further up thread are actually verified tbh. I'm certainly not watching any videos or even looking at any pics. Still far too scarred from the ISIS stuff.

Netan the yahoo has already signalled that he doesn't give a shit about the hostages, and the hostages' families have been physically harassed by Bibi supporters when demonstrating for their relatives' return.

 

[platinumsage]

the expulsion of the Palestinians is the absolute foreground, the reality, the thing that has fucked up the lives of the Palestinians.

I see where you're coming from but I don't think this is as stark a line as you're claiming. It was in the context of the 1947 UN partition which wasn't accepted by the neighbouring Arab states who opposed a 2-state solution and then invaded. Before that of course you have things like the Hebron massacre and increasing Jewish/Arab violence in the decades prior to the Balfour declaration.

The notion that Israel rocked up in 1948 and just chucked out the Palestinians because colonialism or whatever isn't really a sound basis on which to view morality in the current conflict.

 

[platinumsage]

yes

Well it's hardly been the dominating discourse has it, given how many unambiguous civilians were unambiguously tortured and murdered?