PTK
Paul Kegan
That is a good pair of questions.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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Raheem
Well-Known Member
What you're asking is what standard of moral conduct should apply if it were me in their shoes. Perhaps my moral judgement would be different if I were. Perhaps it would also be different if I were in Israeli shoes.
But really, any moral rules of restraint in conflict are meaningless if they are not universal. And there's a difference between what might seem understandable and what is properly legitimate.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Extremely grim outlook for both sides. There will be no winners, only losers.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
I think, in a way, some working class Brits did recognise their role in the slave trade, recognised how they benefited from it in terms of the creation and maintenance of their own jobs in the cotton/textiles trade, in the sense of being other cogs in the same wheel, but taking a stand against it nevertheless. Manchester mill workers made a tremendous sacrifice in support of those enslaved by the cotton trade in the US.
"When cotton was king, Manchester's busy textile mills dressed the world. Because of this, great fortunes were made and ordinary families were fed. But in 1862, Lancashire mill workers, at great personal sacrifice, took a principled stand by refusing to touch raw cotton picked by US slaves...
"...With the 'cotton famine' now taking a firm grip even the Manchester Guardian instructed the mill hands that they were better off dropping their support for the embargo. However, at a noisy meeting at the Manchester Free Trade Hall in 1862, in a historic show of solidarity against slavery, the workers agreed to keep supporting Lincoln's embargo.
"Although an extraordinary gesture, the vote would be costly to the mill workers as more of them faced starvation and destitution. Disorder had already broken out in some northern towns, with the army having to read out the Riot Act.
"With the cotton industry on its knees, Lincoln acknowledged the self-sacrifice of the 'working men of Manchester' in a letter he sent them in 1863. Lincoln's words - later inscribed on the pedestal of his statue that can still be found in Lincoln Square, Manchester - praised the workers for their selfless act of "sublime Christian heroism, which has not been surpassed in any age or in any country."
From the archive: 1863, Lincoln's great debt to Manchester
In 1863, The US President wrote to the 'working men of Manchester' thanking them for their anti-slavery stance
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
One of the problems with abstract discussions of moral rules and responsibilities is that they are normally predicated on an assumption of freedom. What responsibilities do I, a free person, have towards you, another free person? That makes sense. But what responsibilities do I, an imprisoned person, have towards you, my gaoler? That question makes much less sense. Stop being my gaoler and we can talk about it.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I think the dialogue has to start before rather than after any power relationships can change, but I agree with at least some of your underlying analysis.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, I agree. That's what's hard.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Well, unless you factor in the arms companies.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I acknowledge that histories and claims over the land are contested, though to be honest, I was thinking about those actually alive today and living under occupation or who are refugees. For the oldest of those people, that goes back to just before WW2, which was followed by the creation of Israel and expulsion of the Palestinians. Must admit though yes, you are right, I wasn't primarily thinking about events that took place under the Emperor Hadrian.
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
Looks like another hospital is under threat from Israel
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
Another Israeli strike near that hospital. Turn the sound up to hear the missile coming in at high speed, just like the one that hit the hospital a few days ago.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Given the overall context of a militarised colonising state, I think it's reasonable to suggest that at least some of the settlers are not genuine civilians in the sense it's generally understood, so at least some of the settlers can be viewed as legitimate targets.
This is not to justify the recent actions of Hamas, because clearly their attacks were indiscriminate and, whether deliberately or not, killed many who were genuine civilians.
BBC talking about the meaning of the word "jihad" this morning ??
Covering the important stuff.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Not really, it's this diagram, which is exactly as described in the Sky interview:
Dick Destiny
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
I supposed you might have thought more broadly about the Jewish experience from then right up to 1945, and then considered how that has shaped the current situation and mindset of many of the Jews alive today in Israel. But no, keep your cut-off at 1948 and make sure you try not sympathise with both sides, I'm sure that will help you "think about some way out of this fucked up situation".
Not really, it's this diagram, which is exactly as described in the Sky interview:
Dick Destiny
www.dickdestiny.com
Well it wasn't in the book Herzog was holding, so he's lying about that at least. Maybe two books? But then why would he lie? Cock up? TBH, I can't see the fuss about this one, there wasn't a chemical attack anyway. There are much more important matters.
Sometimes Israeli misinformation is really lazy. Like the recording of the two supposed Hamas ops talking about the supposed PIJ rocket. Badly edited together, and Arabic speakers could tell immediately it was fake. It's there to cause confusion in the moment.
donkyboy
Crazy Cat/Fox man
Who goes to attack with leaflets explaining how to make chemical weapons?You would think, you know, they would have it ready before the attack. 
what would be the point of that? Did Hamas intend to stop in a kibbutz kitchen. grab some bleach. put it in a pan. mix it with sugar. add a bit of salt. sprinkle a bit of cinnamon. leave it on warm setting for two hours and then use a water pistol to shoot it at occupying forces?
what would be the point of that? Did Hamas intend to stop in a kibbutz kitchen. grab some bleach. put it in a pan. mix it with sugar. add a bit of salt. sprinkle a bit of cinnamon. leave it on warm setting for two hours and then use a water pistol to shoot it at occupying forces?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Who goes to attack with leaflets explaining how to make chemical weapons?
what would be the point of that? Did Hamas intend to stop in a kibbutz kitchen. grab some bleach. put it in a pan. mix it with sugar. add a bit of salt. sprinkle a bit of cinnamon. leave it on warm setting for two hours and then use a water pistol to shoot it at occupying forces?
Interesting that you find it funny. Note that Herzog never claimed there was a plan to use the document to make chemical weapons during the attack. It was more about highlighting that Hamas are in the same mould as Al Qaeda and ISIS.
donkyboy
Crazy Cat/Fox man
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
As history has come up looked around and here is good short introduction to work of Jewish Israeli historian Ilan Pappe.
See also has link to Rashid Khalidi- Palestinian American historian whose work Ive read. Have not watched the video.
www.middleeasteye.net
Lays out his thesis that expulsion of Palestinians was deliberate policy of Zionists.
His view is that the way to resolve this is One State solution.
See also has link to Rashid Khalidi- Palestinian American historian whose work Ive read. Have not watched the video.
Palestine was destroyed in 12 months - but the Nakba has gone on for 75 years
The Nakba devastated the lives and aspirations of the Palestinian people. Only a thorough process of restitutive justice, with the help of the world, can begin to right the wrongs
www.middleeasteye.net
Lays out his thesis that expulsion of Palestinians was deliberate policy of Zionists.
His view is that the way to resolve this is One State solution.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Try living a life as a black wc compared to white wc and the benefits are clear to see.Every penny and benefit that the wc gets has been fought for. As if the aristocracy simply gave things away.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
Hate begets violence, begets revenge...ad infinitum
They hate each other.
Policies to reduce the violence have been absent from the 2 direct participants.
The hate won't ever go away and although the US and most of the west need to try harder to undo the mess it created when it gave away land to be the home of one religon, (land that wasnt even theirs to give in the first place)I dont see any way of actually achieving peace in the area, force will decide the outcome
Land ownership in itself has always been a largely a case of theft through force, but the creation of Israel stands out in modern history as a possibly well intentioned major fuck up
They hate each other.
Policies to reduce the violence have been absent from the 2 direct participants.
The hate won't ever go away and although the US and most of the west need to try harder to undo the mess it created when it gave away land to be the home of one religon, (land that wasnt even theirs to give in the first place)I dont see any way of actually achieving peace in the area, force will decide the outcome
Land ownership in itself has always been a largely a case of theft through force, but the creation of Israel stands out in modern history as a possibly well intentioned major fuck up
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
the road to hell famously paved with good intentions
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And you accuse others of misrepresenting you? Your question asked about 'innocent civilians', not 'legitimate targets'. I answered that question in the only way I could - it's complicated. I don't think they are legitimate targets just by dint of being there. If you'd been reading my posts carefully, you'd see that I've already said that.
You said something stupid and inappropriate in the context - 'we're all on settlers' land'. Own it.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
This squabble between you two is far too decorous. One of you should call the other a cunt, to up the ante a bit.
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