Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Knotted]

On October 7th? In reaction to the slaughter of innocent civilians? FS, Knotted

My position is a moral position firstly. There's an interview with Norman Finkelstein that was posted up thread that articulates the moral failings of condemnation better than I can. (I think Finkelstein is wrong on several things especially on anti-semitism on the left, but I think he's good on these straight but difficult/dark moral questions).

My position is not a nationalist position. I don't think nationalism means much in Gaza as a practical project. Palestinians especially in Gaza are a long way from realising a national project along whatever lines. It's also not a statist position. This was not the actions of a state ruling over a territory but a breaking of the blockade. We can talk about Hamas repression in Gaza if you want, but that's another question. I saw it as an opening of (slim) possibilities that turned out not to be realised. The moment has now passed though, it was a drop of hope in an ocean of despair, the context being the deteriorating material situation in Gaza and the deteriorating diplomatic situation that was leaving Palestinians and Gazans in particular abandoned. I will say I was horrified and disgusted by the atrocities and their extent - on the day I thought wrongly that they were concentrating on military targets. Although at the same time expressing disgust is melancholic, it doesn't effect anything.

There is a general wisdom on the left that socialist/anarchist action is a marathon not a sprint. This is there for very good reasons. You have to slowly and patiently organise, facilitate workers coming to the conclusion that they can advance using whatever strategy you pick. This takes time. I don't think Gaza in particular sitting on the verge of a humanitarian disaster and international abandonment had time though. I don't think it had much in the way of industry to control even if they did have time - it's an economy deeply dependent on aid.

I think this episode has exposed deep problems with abstract/knee jerk socialist thought. Overthrow Hamas set up a workers commune, under the same miserable and deteriorating conditions while waiting for the mainly social chauvinist Jewish Israeli workers to show solidarity is not a position. It's a flinch.

Lifting the blockade has to come before even nationalism, nevermind socialism. The reality that the forces on the ground are not the "good guys" (as someone said up thread), is just one you have to swallow. I posted a link to the PFLP statement on the events of 7/10. They're the closest to being a left alternative in Gaza and they're still a million miles away from having any influence on events nevermind more pure alternatives to them. And as I underline, Gaza did not then and certainly does not now have time to wait.

 

[Wilf]

I didn’t say they don’t. I said Westerners who want to show solidarity should find another way than waving national flags.

But it's incredibly complicated - meant not in the sense of 'I know better', quite the opposite. There's a long running debate on the left about support for national liberation struggles and how that might relate to your own vision of the world. Then there's the issue of how the people at the sharp end of this frame the struggle, use symbols such as flags. With all that and probably other issues I share your anxiety about flags as you might guess, but feel wary about saying anything at the point the bombs are falling. Which is a big pile of 'I don't know'. Maybe practical help is something, though that will be limited. Whether it be raising money, perhaps keeping a critique of Hamas going, supporting individuals, attacking Biden/Starmer, fuck knows. My own position at the moment is predominantly an emotional one about the unfolding horror. It feels difficult, amid all that pessimism, to think where any kind of critique would 'fit'.

 

[danny la rouge]

But it's incredibly complicated - meant not in the sense of 'I know better', quite the opposite. There's a long running debate on the left about support for national liberation struggles and how that might relate to your own vision of the world. Then there's the issue of how the people at the sharp end of this frame the struggle, use symbols such as flags. With all that and probably other issues I share your anxiety about flags as you might guess, but feel wary about saying anything at the point the bombs are falling. Which is a big pile of 'I don't know'. Maybe practical help is something, though that will be limited. Whether it be raising money, perhaps keeping a critique of Hamas going, supporting individuals, attacking Biden/Starmer, fuck knows. My own position at the moment is predominantly an emotional one about the unfolding horror. It feels difficult, amid all that pessimism, to think where any kind of critique would 'fit'.

Aye, and I wasn’t making any wider criticism than the one I was making.

 

[Bingoman]

Blast, ambulances heard near Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza, witnesses say

An explosion and the sound of ambulances were heard near the Rafah crossing between Egypt and the Gaza Strip on Sunday afternoon, shortly after a second aid convoy had entered the crossing from the Egyptian side, witnesses said.

www.reuters.com

 

[Knotted]

Red Action and Anti-Fascist Action used to talk about anti-fascism as a rear-guard action. In contrast typically socialists see everything in terms of building a socialist project - "building the movement", importance of paper sales etc. In the current context we can look at the Socialist Party slogan - for a Socialist Intifada! I don't want to analogise too closely with anti-fascism (it's not similar to that) but thinking with respect to Palestine should be focused around dealing with a deteriorating situation rather than opportunity for socialist thought/workers unity etc.

 

[danny la rouge]

My position is a moral position firstly.

With respect, if you think that the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians is a justifiable tactic of the struggle against oppression, then I’m not on your side.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

With respect, if you think that the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians is a justifiable tactic of the struggle against oppression, then I’m not on your side.

I agree with this. But isn’t one argument (beheaded babies aside) that nobody on settlers land is an innocent civilian?

 

[danny la rouge]

I agree with this. But isn’t one argument (beheaded babies aside) that nobody on settlers land is an innocent civilian?

We’re all on settlers’ land.

 

[Knotted]

With respect, if you think that the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians is a justifiable tactic of the struggle against oppression, then I’m not on your side.

I don't think it was a justifiable tactic. (I also don't think settlers lose their civilian status for being settlers Magnus McGinty .)

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't think it was a justifiable tactic. (I also don't think settlers lose their civilian status for being settlers Magnus McGinty .)

OK, so you were (seemingly) cheering what?

 

[planetgeli]

We’re all on settlers’ land.

Seems a bit of a crass answer for you.

Most of us aren't doing this.

Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank

Palestinian families say they have been intimidated and displaced in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Magnus McGinty]

We’re all on settlers’ land.

Well I’m not both armed and paid to be but fair point.

 

[PTK]

OK, so you were (seemingly) cheering what?

That people in the Gaza Strip broke out of their imprisonment and took on the army of the state that oppresses them would be seen as a good thing by many people.

 

[Knotted]

OK, so you were (seemingly) cheering what?

Breaking through the wall. An amazing achievement on it's own right.

Taking on and defeating surprised IDF barracks.

Taking hostages. Especially military hostages.

The forlorn hope that there may be military mobilisations (Hizbollah at least) against Israel that would make them compromise in the face of calamity.

There is also the simple joy that the oppressed managed to turn the tables at least for a couple of days. And I know the response is that Hamas are a ruling Islamist party, but I can separate criticism of Hamas domestic rule and military action.

Edit to add: Also that Israel governs by displays of strength against Arabs and Palestinians in particular. This vision of strength was shattered on 7/10.

 

[CH1]

I agree with this. But isn’t one argument (beheaded babies aside) that nobody on settlers land is an innocent civilian?

Surely the settler issue is the root of all this.
If the Israeli Army hadn't been protecting illegal settlers in the West Bank they might have been available to defend innocent Israeli citizens who got slaughtered.
Aside from that this process of encroachment backed by militia and Israeli army force has gone on since 1947.
Success for the aggressor depends on submission by the colonised - which was achieved in the United States because no-one was around to defend the First Nation.
In Israel the religious and other partisans look upon the reservations and lo - see plenty of scope for seizing more land.
I haven't a good idea of what the land areas are for the official Israeli state and the |West Bank and Gaza - but to me it look like the Palestinians still hold maybe 20% of the area Israel holds.
Obviously the West Bank is the juicy bit being near Jerusalem. Maybe that is why Netanyahu allowed Hamas to take Gaza - which Israel is not so keen to colonise.
I basically agree with Gramsci and others that a 2 state solution has been a 75 year failure.
That said I'm sure if some sort of one state integrated solution had been tried it could easily have been politically subverted internally by Zjonist politicians who did not want Palestinians in "their" country. Were they not very loyal supporters of Apartheid South Africa? http://archive.today/L5r83

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We’re all on settlers’ land.

We're not all on settlers' land in the same way. Just as not all flag-waving should necessarily be considered embarrassing.

I don't agree with the argument that all Israelis are valid targets because they are settlers, btw. Somehow people on both sides need to break the cycle of violence and hate if there is to be any hope.

But the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are refugees. Many of them are refugees from land just a few kilometres from Gaza. They haven't disappeared. They can still tell you the names of the villages their families are from.

That many similar injustices have been perpetrated in the past, including on the land we might live on, doesn't diminish the rightness of the Palestinians' cause in the here and now.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

We're not all on settlers' land in the same way. Just as not all flag-waving should necessarily be considered embarrassing.

I don't agree with the argument that all Israelis are valid targets because they are settlers, btw. Somehow people on both sides need to break the cycle of violence and hate if there is to be any hope.

But the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are refugees. Many of them are refugees from land just a few kilometres from Gaza. They haven't disappeared. They can still tell you the names of the villages their families are from.

That many similar injustices have been perpetrated in the past, including on the land we might live on, doesn't diminish the rightness of the Palestinians' cause in the here and now.

It’s a mad position tbh. I steal your house. Then I starve you in the place I’ve locked you up. But we’re all settlers.

 

[platinumsage]

The attacks of the 7th October were hideous, appalling. But there is a but. There's history, there's context, a history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression. The 'but' is not about creating a balance, reducing the agency of those who ordered and carried out the attacks of the 7th October. It's about fucking common sense and ultimately, thinking about some way out of this fucked up situation. I'm not optimistic, but reducing the attacks of 7th October to pure evil - and taking away the decades of IDF and settler mass murders - does nothing but continue the cycle.

Yet you just took away the centuries of antisemitism and reduced the attacks to a direct response to Israeli actions.

Of course there's always history. Anyone who genuinely wants to "think about some way out of this fucked up situation" should probably acknowledge that the "history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression" behind the 7th October attacks includes the history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression of Jews, since the Romans displaced them from this very land they are “occupying” now. But of course, anyone on here going “but Israel..” should know all that, so the failure to sympathise with ordinary Jews like they sympathise with ordinary Palestinians is probably a result of their politics, which is perhaps not as sound as they think it is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yet you just took away the centuries of antisemitism and reduced the attacks to a direct response to Israeli actions.

Of course there's always history. Anyone who genuinely wants to "think about some way out of this fucked up situation" should probably acknowledge that the "history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression" behind the 7th October attacks includes the history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression of Jews, since the Romans displaced them from this very land they are “occupying” now. But of course, anyone on here going “but Israel..” should know all that, so the failure to sympathise with ordinary Jews like they sympathise with ordinary Palestinians is probably a result of their politics, which is perhaps not as sound as they think it is.

What's the history behind your post that you'd like us to take into account?

 

[danny la rouge]

But the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are refugees. Many of them are refugees from land just a few kilometres from Gaza. They haven't disappeared. They can still tell you the names of the villages their families are from.

That many similar injustices have been perpetrated in the past, including on the land we might live on, doesn't diminish the rightness of the Palestinians' cause in the here and now.

I haven’t at any point said otherwise.

 

[PTK]

Yet you just took away the centuries of antisemitism and reduced the attacks to a direct response to Israeli actions.

Of course there's always history. Anyone who genuinely wants to "think about some way out of this fucked up situation" should probably acknowledge that the "history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression" behind the 7th October attacks includes the history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression of Jews, since the Romans displaced them from this very land they are “occupying” now. But of course, anyone on here going “but Israel..” should know all that, so the failure to sympathise with ordinary Jews like they sympathise with ordinary Palestinians is probably a result of their politics, which is perhaps not as sound as they think it is.

Your position is that the descendents of any group that formerly lived on a piece of territory any time in the past has the right to settle on that territory and expel the present day inhabitants?
If such a principle were applied universally, that would be a recipe for chaos and war across the world.

 

[Knotted]

I don't want to linger too much on from the events of 7th October, it's in danger of derailing the thread apart from anything but the key part of the Finkelstein interview can be found here if people are still interested.

 

[platinumsage]

Your position is that the descendents of any group that formerly lived on a piece of territory any time in the past has the right to settle on that territory and expel the present day inhabitants?
If such a principle were applied universally, that would be a recipe for chaos and war across the world.

Not at all, my point is that you if you're very selective about the historical context that you you choose to apply when excusing terrorism, people might assume that you do actually want to excuse terrorism and that you aren't actually interested in the historical context.

 

[Sasaferrato]

With respect, if you think that the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians is a justifiable tactic of the struggle against oppression, then I’m not on your side.

Well said.

 

[teqniq]

How does a tank 'accidentally fire'?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Could have been a breach, uncommon, but happens. But this is the IDF!

Hope it has massive repercussions.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I was 15 at the time of the Six Day War, I'm 71 now, and the rockets and bombs are still killing people.

Short of total occupation by the UN, and a forcible land division to create two states, I can't see an end to this.

 

[A380]

I don't want to linger too much on from the events of 7th October…

No great surprise there.

 

[Sasaferrato]

How does a tank 'accidentally fire'?

Can happen, but it is very very rare.

 

[Knotted]

No great surprise there.

We can discuss it if you want and I've stated my position as clearly and openly as possible. I do think this thread is better left for keeping on top of events, though.