danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Whoever said that needs to give their head a wobble.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I also strongly dislike nationalism, but anti-colonial nationalism in opposition to an occupying force is something a little different. I'm not quite sure where else a displaced refugee people is supposed to turn.
Yes, oppose Hamas, call out Islamism, support secularist Palestinian groups, advocate a secular state as the solution to the problem. But waving a flag that the British Home Secretary has threatened to outlaw (ludicrously, of course, but it shows that symbol's power) is very understandable.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
There’s a difference between being a Palestinian in Gaza and a being a Westerner on FaceBook. Quite a big one. Find another way of showing solidarity.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Who has actually posted that?People have already made it clear on this thread that sadistic torture of civilians including children is an inevitable consequence of Israel's policy towards Gaza. Evidence of people having their eyes gouged out in front of their kids or whatever isn't going to matter to them - Hamas aren't terrorists and their actions and Jew-hating aren't due to their religion or politics or anything but entirely the fault of Israel.
It's surely possible to condemn the recent actions of Hamas, while still recognising that the long term oppression of Palestinians by Israel is what is ultimately responsible for this situation, unless you're operating on some simplistic narrative which seeks to paint one side as utterly evil and the other as utterly blameless.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
But yes, I knew the “likes” would stop coming when I opposed the flag shagging.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Among other things, waving that flag is an act of defiance. It's a way of saying 'we're still here'. It isn't support for Hamas. It isn't anti-Jewish. The flag of a dispossessed people means something a bit more than just narrow-minded nationalism.
Increasingly it's looking like a flag is all the Palestinians are going to be left with
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Which is why, with a few credible exceptions like danny la rouge , most posters who can deal in nuance have bowed out of this thread leaving predominately in the hands of the normal headbangers.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I didn’t say it was pro Hamas or antiJewish. I said it was embarrassing, simplistic and nationalist. It’s a symptom of a statist world view.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
For the torture of killing of Jewish civilians is it?
Remind me what proportion of the historical torture and killing of Jews was ultimately their fault?
Why do you assume that just because recent oppression of Palestinians by Israel has been a thing, that it is the cause of this particular round of torture and killing of Jews? Would Jews in an equitable Arab/Jewish state be immune from such acts? Would anti-Semitism in the region just evaporate if only the Jews were nicer?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Who posted this?
andysays
Love and solidarity
I can only assume that you either haven't read my post, or that you are unable to understand it because it doesn't fit with your simplistic narrative.
Either way, I don't think I'll bother to engage with you anymore.
Flavour
hang the bankers
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
On October 7th? In reaction to the slaughter of innocent civilians? FS, Knotted
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Nuance is one of the first casualties of nationalism.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think this is simplistic, though. If a refugee population is being repressed by a state, they need some form of organising power to oppose it.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I didn’t say they don’t. I said Westerners who want to show solidarity should find another way than waving national flags.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I was on the march yesterday. If you look at the photos the characterisation that its a kind of "Westerner on Facebook" doing the flagwaving is a bit simplistic.
A lot of the people there came from a middle east background and identify with the Palestinians as people from their region. This is not based on national borders. They are "westerners" as much as me but with a different history.
Waving the Palestinian flag and opposing the bombing of Gaza is something they felt strongly about. It was a way of showing solidarity.
What particularly was angering people on the march was the bombing of Gaza which inevitably was leading to large civilian casualties.
I dont think telling some of the people on the march that there was a difference between waving a flag here and being a Palestinian in Gaza would have been seen as a sensitive comment to make considering the circumstances.
They were not , from what I saw, the usual political groups who attend demos.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Yes, if you read my posts you’ll find I said it was very different if you’re a Palestinian.
This is what happens, though. I’m against Westerners putting national flags in their profile and already I’m “against organisation” and I called everyone on the demonstrations “a Westerner on Facebook”. I’m not, and I didn’t.
Fwiw I’ve supported solidarity for Palestinians for decades, been on many marches and demos (although not yesterday, due to my disability). And I’ve donated to MAP. And I do all of this without waving national flags.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What Gramsci said, essentially. I think you're being very simplistic here. There is a sea of Palestinian flags at the demos. In the case of the UK demos, the majority of those waving flags are British citizens. They are expressing their solidarity with Palestinians by waving the symbol that signifies 'Palestine'.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I don’t think this exchange is going anywhere. I never did, mind you.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Hmmm. How very superior of you.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Well, you’re telling me things I think, which I don’t think and which I never said. Which is very hard to argue with when I repeatedly say so and am repeatedly ignored.
So, I do think the exchange is pointless.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And you're telling people they're doing solidarity wrong, with an added lecture about nationalism.
But in general I am quite certain that it is a good thing that exchanges such as this are happening all over the globe is a positive thing.Knotted is well able to speak for himself but I think if he expressed an optimism back at post four when we had fewer details than we do know it may have been this that he had in mind
On a phone can't edit soz
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Though on danny la rouge point of nationalism. Ilan Pappe view on the UN partition plan in 1947 - to give each side a state was a disaster. That in practice ( not meant by UN) was a driver for ethnic cleansing.
Ilan Pappe sometime points to what could have been a different history for Palestine. If I read him right.
As Ive posted previously there have been times when both Fatah and Isreali Jewish groups have looked at a one state solution where both Isreali Jews and Palestinians can live together in one state. Might come across as utopian
To add that includes Ilan Pappe. Worth listening to on this.
What would result is a nation state where the historical backgrounds of both major communities co exist. Particularly important as now Israel has existed long enough for a generation of Jews whose only home is Israel. They arent just settlers.
imo there can be different kinds of nationalisms.
Ilan Pappe sometime points to what could have been a different history for Palestine. If I read him right.
As Ive posted previously there have been times when both Fatah and Isreali Jewish groups have looked at a one state solution where both Isreali Jews and Palestinians can live together in one state. Might come across as utopian
To add that includes Ilan Pappe. Worth listening to on this.
What would result is a nation state where the historical backgrounds of both major communities co exist. Particularly important as now Israel has existed long enough for a generation of Jews whose only home is Israel. They arent just settlers.
imo there can be different kinds of nationalisms.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I thinking a lot of people are getting things wrong. It’s understandable. Things are messy.
I think the ACG got this wrong too:
“the chauvinism of the Israeli Jewish working class, which arises from its materially privileged status over the Palestinian working class. In complicity with this dynamic the Israeli Jewish working-class are shamefully complicit with the oppression of the Palestinian proletariat, with whom in reality they have far more in common than their Israeli bosses.”
The situation in Gaza - Anarchist Communist Group
We echo the Melbourne Anarchist Communist Group (MACG) in calling for the intervention of all ‘workers and soldiers in a position to prevent’ the impending genocidal ground invasion of Gaza by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF.) The complete blockade and bombing of Gaza and ordered evacuation of...
www.anarchistcommunism.org
It’s a sweeping generalisation about the whole Israeli working class, in which they appear to be identifying the Israeli working class with the Israeli state.
Don’t do that, comrades. You wouldn’t do that in the UK. Don’t do it in Israel.
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