Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[PTK]

Wouldn't the employer normally investigate a complaint like this ?

“British Transport Police (BTP) and TfL said they were urgently investigating the incident.”

Urgent! That is because they have nothing better to do.

The British Transport Police is actually a police force financed by rail and tube companies, so I suppose in a sense they are company cops.

 

[Dystopiary]

I’m fairly up on antisemitic tropes and the Holocaust, having taken an interest in humanity’s darker side, but it’s not one I’d have noticed. So it’s a pretty selective dog whistle if it is one. Which of course it isn’t.

It's octopus tentacles isn't it, symbolising control and machination (see also "puppetmasters"). I think that's extremely unlikely that what GT's little mood toy was being used to represent, and strongly suspect the author wasn't interested in antisemitism rather than an excuse to discredit and smear Thunberg and stir up "engagement" on social media.

 

[PTK]

.

 

[platinumsage]

Erm…

Yes, that's where I didn't go on to excuse any violent acts but to make a specific point about a particular set of casualty numbers.

 

[emanymton]

It's octopus tentacles isn't it, symbolising control and machination (see also "puppetmasters"). I think that's extremely unlikely that what GT's little mood toy was being used to represent, and strongly suspect the author wasn't interested in antisemitism rather than an excuse to discredit and smear Thunberg and stir up "engagement" on social media.

I'm sure this is true, especially the last part.

But doesn't seem odd to anyone else that it is the only stuffed toy in the picture? Just puts a tiny bit of doubt in my mind.

There must have been some perfectly good reason they chose to have it in the picture and and possible antisemitic meaning is completely accidental. Let's face it you need to be deep into this shit to draw the connections.

 

[kabbes]

Yes, that's where I didn't go on to excuse any violent acts but to make a specific point about a particular set of casualty numbers.

Or, to put it another way, you used your chance to post in such a way as to downplay the significance and relevance of those casualty numbers. The act performed by this post was thus to provide rhetorical cover against the violence being perpetrated that led to those casualties. All speech (written or otherwise) has a purpose, and that purpose is never neutral. If you think you’re being objective, that simply means you haven’t understood your own positionality within the discourse.

As I noted at the time, any statement that begins “sure, civilians are being killed in Gaza every day, but…” can never be one that is simply relaying facts.

 

[kabbes]

Dp

 

[PTK]

Though on danny la rouge point of nationalism. Ilan Pappe view on the UN partition plan in 1947 - to give each side a state was a disaster. That in practice ( not meant by UN) was a driver for ethnic cleansing.

Ilan Pappe sometime points to what could have been a different history for Palestine. If I read him right.

As Ive posted previously there have been times when both Fatah and Isreali Jewish groups have looked at a one state solution where both Isreali Jews and Palestinians can live together in one state. Might come across as utopian

To add that includes Ilan Pappe. Worth listening to on this.

What would result is a nation state where the historical backgrounds of both major communities co exist. Particularly important as now Israel has existed long enough for a generation of Jews whose only home is Israel. They arent just settlers.

imo there can be different kinds of nationalisms.

It would not be a "nation state". It would be a "bi-national state".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But doesn't seem odd to anyone else that it is the only stuffed toy in the picture? Just puts a tiny bit of doubt in my mind.

No.

Simplest explanation is that she didn't choose to have it there. It just happened to be there.

Thunberg of all people is incredibly unlikely to indulge in this kind of obscure dog-whistling given that she is autistic.

This is what she said in response:

"It has come to my knowledge that the stuffed animal shown in my earlier post can be interpreted by some as a symbol for antisemitism, which I was completely unaware of. The toy in the picture is a tool often used by autistic people as a way to communicate feelings. We are of course against every type of discrimination, and condemn antisemitism in all forms and shapes. This is non-negotiable. That is why I deleted the last post."

 

[Eric Jarvis]

I'm sure this is true, especially the last part.

But doesn't seem odd to anyone else that it is the only stuffed toy in the picture? Just puts a tiny bit of doubt in my mind.

There must have been some perfectly good reason they chose to have it in the picture and and possible antisemitic meaning is completely accidental. Let's face it you need to be deep into this shit to draw the connections.

It is a soft toy octopus, something used by many autistic people as a coping aid. The claim is that it is a kraken, something has been used as a symbol by Nazis but very rarely. I have friends who actually have soft toy krakens and they look nothing like it, also what they symbolise is either a horror fiction/film fan, or a goth. It's in the running for the title of the most desperate failed attempt at an antisemitism smear of the last five years, which is impressive.

 

[platinumsage]

Or, to put it another way, you used your chance to post in such a way as to downplay the significance and relevance of those casualty numbers. The act performed by this post was thus to provide rhetorical cover against the violence being perpetrated that led to those casualties. All speech (written or otherwise) has a purpose, and that purpose is never neutral. If you think you’re being objective, that simply means you haven’t understood your own positionality within the discourse.

As I noted at the time, any statement that begins “sure, civilians are being killed in Gaza every day, but…” can never be one that is simply relaying facts.

Funnily enough I considered simply omitting that first part and making my point, but I figured someone on here would ignore my point and accuse me of failing to acknowledge civilians being killed in Gaza which is why I prepended it. Obviously I shouldn't have bothered.

But sure, choose a post of mine about causality statistics to try and argue I'm a hypocrite when complaining about people excusing the actions of Hamas instead of addressing my actual argument. Give yourself a slow clap.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

When it comes to flags. The Israeli flag is a symbol of the land and people of Israel and the Palestinian flag is the symbol of the land and people of Palestine. Neither is a symbol of Netanyahu, the IDF, Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Either both are acceptable or neither is.

 

[Dystopiary]

I'm sure this is true, especially the last part.

But doesn't seem odd to anyone else that it is the only stuffed toy in the picture? Just puts a tiny bit of doubt in my mind.

There must have been some perfectly good reason they chose to have it in the picture and and possible antisemitic meaning is completely accidental. Let's face it you need to be deep into this shit to draw the connections.

I agree except for your very last bit.

I don't want to be too presumptuous re GT's autism, but those mood octopuses can be turned from happy/positive to sad/pissed off, and it might be that she uses it to reflect how she's feeling. It's not an unusual toy to have - they seem quite popular at the moment. On the other hand, antisemitism is still a big problem the world over and a wariness of potential dog-whistles is understandable.

However, I do question the jumping from a possible "hmm..." to a Spectator journalist's:

"A blue octopus is a Nazi trope for anti-semitism. A 1938 Nazi cartoon depicts the Jews as an octopus, its tentacles wrapped around the globe. Nothing to do with climate change or the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Pure, old fashioned, race hatred of the worst kind."

ETA Posted before I'd seen the above posts including GT's response.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Though on danny la rouge point of nationalism. Ilan Pappe view on the UN partition plan in 1947 - to give each side a state was a disaster. That in practice ( not meant by UN) was a driver for ethnic cleansing.

Ilan Pappe sometime points to what could have been a different history for Palestine. If I read him right.

As Ive posted previously there have been times when both Fatah and Isreali Jewish groups have looked at a one state solution where both Isreali Jews and Palestinians can live together in one state. Might come across as utopian

To add that includes Ilan Pappe. Worth listening to on this.

What would result is a nation state where the historical backgrounds of both major communities co exist. Particularly important as now Israel has existed long enough for a generation of Jews whose only home is Israel. They arent just settlers.

imo there can be different kinds of nationalisms.

The map is not the territory, the label is not the thing. Words like "nationalism" can apply to a lot of different ideas. Treating them as if the label means everything it is attached to is identical is not only sloppy thinking, it is also the sort of sloppy thinking that lies behind most bigotry.

 

[The39thStep]

“British Transport Police (BTP) and TfL said they were urgently investigating the incident.”

Urgent! That is because they have nothing better to do.

The British Transport Police is actually a police force financed by rail and tube companies, so I suppose in a sense they are company cops.

I think the specific reason is the possible , however unlikely , hate crime label .

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I agree except for your very last bit.

I don't want to be too presumptuous re GT's autism, but those mood octopuses can be turned from happy/positive to sad/pissed off, and it might be that she uses it to reflect how she's feeling. It's not an unusual toy to have - they seem quite popular at the moment. On the other hand, antisemitism is still a big problem the world over and a wariness of potential dog-whistles is understandable.

However, I do question the jumping from a possible "hmm..." to a Spectator journalist's:

"A blue octopus is a Nazi trope for anti-semitism. A 1938 Nazi cartoon depicts the Jews as an octopus, its tentacles wrapped around the globe. Nothing to do with climate change or the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Pure, old fashioned, race hatred of the worst kind."

ETA Posted before I'd seen the above posts including GT's response.

A pretty useless dog whistle given folk on here that follow such stuff have never heard of it.

 

[Pickman's model]

It is a soft toy octopus, something used by many autistic people as a coping aid. The claim is that it is a kraken, something has been used as a symbol by Nazis but very rarely. I have friends who actually have soft toy krakens and they look nothing like it, also what they symbolise is either a horror fiction/film fan, or a goth. It's in the running for the title of the most desperate failed attempt at an antisemitism smear of the last five years, which is impressive.

Tbh there's always people looking for offence and they're very good at finding it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A pretty useless dog whistle given folk on here that follow such stuff have never heard of it.

Looking it up, it does appear to be a thing. I'd never heard of it. It is pretty easy to fall foul of tropes by accident. People on here in the past have said 'North London Intellectual' genuinely not realising that that can be an antisemitic trope.

And what did Thunberg do in response? She explained it was a toy she used as a coping mechanism for her autism, that it was nothing other than that and that she opposed all antisemitism, and she deleted the post in question. That really should be the end of the matter.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Looking it up, it does appear to be a thing. I'd never heard of it. It is pretty easy to fall foul of tropes by accident. People on here in the past have said 'North London Intellectual' genuinely not realising that that can be an antisemitic trope.

And what did Thunberg do in response? She explained it was a toy she used as a coping mechanism for her autism, that it was nothing other than that and that she opposed all antisemitism, and she deleted the post in question. That really should be the end of the matter.

I hadn’t heard of North London intellectual either!

 

[Dystopiary]

A pretty useless dog whistle given folk on here that follow such stuff have never heard of it.

Please don't.

 

[kabbes]

Funnily enough I considered simply omitting that first part and making my point, but I figured someone on here would ignore my point and accuse me of failing to acknowledge civilians being killed in Gaza which is why I prepended it. Obviously I shouldn't have bothered.

So, it seems that your “objective, neutral reporting of facts” actually included you carefully placing words in order to take a position. Plus your representations of what others think led to you make rhetorical attempts to pre-counter those representations. Well, fancy that.

And, just maybe, that position you were pre-emptively defending through the use of that phrase was one that included an uncritical defence of Israelis to perform their actions? Which brings us right back to my original point about what your phrasing revealed.

 

[Dystopiary]

I thought this was a pretty good article about British Jewish opposition to Gaza genocide, in the aftermath of Hamas's horrific attack on 7th October.

Shock, rage, increasing unease: UK’s Jewish community wrestles with response to war

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Please don't.

Eh? A cuddly toy that relates to something nobody on here has heard of is hardly a controversial statement. Please don’t you.

 

[platinumsage]

So, it seems that your “objective, neutral reporting of facts” actually included you carefully placing words in order to take a position. Plus your representations of what others think led to you make rhetorical attempts to pre-counter those representations. Well, fancy that.

And, just maybe, that position you were pre-emptively defending through the use of that phrase was one that included an uncritical defence of Israelis to perform their actions? Which brings us right back to my original point about what your phrasing revealed.

How did that slow clap go?

 

[Dystopiary]

Eh? A cuddly toy that relates to something nobody on here has heard of is hardly a controversial statement. Please don’t you.

I'd heard of it. I'm sure others have too.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'd heard of it. I'm sure others have too.

Perhaps it was dog whistling you then?

 

[PTK]

.

 

[danny la rouge]

A pretty useless dog whistle given folk on here that follow such stuff have never heard of it.

It’s not that I hadn’t heard of it. It’s that I didn’t register this as a reference to that. It’s both pretty niche and a very cryptic reference. So, no, GT didn’t intend it as a dog whistle.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The Greta octopus thing just shows how few people actually know anything about autism…

 

[Wilf]

Yes it's always "I don't support the actions of Hamas but..." because the actions of Hamas terrorists and their world-view are an inevitable consequence of Israel existing. The baby be-headers have an excuse.

I'm pretty sure it's possible to have a critical view of Israeli policy whilst also appreciating the terrorists have their own agency and that a desire to torture Jews and wipe them off the map isn't dependent on a right-wing government in the Knesset.

The attacks of the 7th October were hideous, appalling. But there is a but. There's history, there's context, a history and context of stolen land and brutal oppression. The 'but' is not about creating a balance, reducing the agency of those who ordered and carried out the attacks of the 7th October. It's about fucking common sense and ultimately, thinking about some way out of this fucked up situation. I'm not optimistic, but reducing the attacks of 7th October to pure evil - and taking away the decades of IDF and settler mass murders - does nothing but continue the cycle.