Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[PTK]

fair play to all urbs who went to on the march today

Yep. Well done. I wished I could have been there.

 

[PTK]

There are Jews such as Amira Hass and Sara Roy who have lived in Gaza and been welcomed there.

I am ignoring this racist so-and-so. It's the same mentality that called all Irish people murderous psychopaths in the 1970s.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just left.

I have no expertise in judging, and it was harder to walk back along the march this week, but there must have been half a million plus there today. A similar feel to last week, but with added banners about hospitals, and more banners denouncing Sunak and Starmer. Also a more notable trades union presence.

 

[krtek a houby]

Good to see that civilised debate is thriving in U75.

What would you know? You've just joined up in the last week or so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Looks like big turnout
.

Pro-Palestinian protests take place in London, Birmingham, Cardiff, Belfast and Salford

The protests come as aid deliveries reach Gaza for the first time since the Hamas attack on Israel.

www.bbc.com

The Met Police estimated up to 100,000 people had joined the march, which was due to end in a rally near Downing Street, as of 14:00 BST.

Way, way bigger than that.

But then they said last week was 10,000.

 

[PTK]

Mark Regev, Senior Advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister: “We don’t target civilian structures”.

(at 10 minutes 15 seconds in the video below).

I must be hallucinating when I saw television footage of blocks of flats collapsing after being hit by IDF missiles. Why does the IDF send text messages to residents of flats warning them to evacuate if it does not target civilian structures?

 

[Pickman's model]

View attachment 396414

But what do you think?

 

[Pickman's model]

Looks like big turnout
.

Pro-Palestinian protests take place in London, Birmingham, Cardiff, Belfast and Salford

The protests come as aid deliveries reach Gaza for the first time since the Hamas attack on Israel.

www.bbc.com

The Met Police estimated up to 100,000 people had joined the march, which was due to end in a rally near Downing Street, as of 14:00 BST.

No one knows. The cops pluck a figure out of the air as do march organisers. There's very few demos anyone makes any real effort to count or calculate the numbers present.

 

[krtek a houby]

But what do you think?

He doesn't.

He's made of the fence he's sitting on.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

View attachment 396414

I do not want to read your training manual, muppet

 

[Pickman's model]

Mark Regev, Senior Advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister: “We don’t target civilian structures”.

(at 10 minutes 15 seconds in the video below).

I must be hallucinating when I saw television footage of blocks of flats collapsing after being hit by IDF missiles. Why does the IDF send text messages to residents of flats warning them to evacuate if it does not target civilian structures?

Yeh sure they don't bomb civilian structures Former US congressman says family members killed in Gaza church blast

 

[Wilf]

But what do you think?

Oh my, don't ask that!

 

[Mezzer]

Mark Regev, Senior Advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister: “We don’t target civilian structures”.

(at 10 minutes 15 seconds in the video below).

I must be hallucinating when I saw television footage of blocks of flats collapsing after being hit by IDF missiles. Why does the IDF send text messages to residents of flats warning them to evacuate if it does not target civilian structures?

You've obviously not seen Regev perform then. It's always a different reality with him and he smiles as he spews out this crap. Stopped watched his shit show years ago.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh my, don't ask that!

I don't think we'd be much burdened with a full answer as they seem so light on understanding

 

[8ball]

I do not want to read your training manual, muppet

Is missing step 6, anyway.

 

[Wilf]

An increasingly grim atmosphere in America, silencing Palestinian voices, urging sackings, cancelling conferences and even editing pro-Palestinian contributions out of already recorded TV programmes.

Pro-Palestinian views face suppression in US amid Israel-Hamas war

Conferences have been abruptly cancelled, media appearances suppressed and demands made to fire critics of Israeli policies

www.theguardian.com

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Looks like big turnout
.

Pro-Palestinian protests take place in London, Birmingham, Cardiff, Belfast and Salford

The protests come as aid deliveries reach Gaza for the first time since the Hamas attack on Israel.

www.bbc.com

The Met Police estimated up to 100,000 people had joined the march, which was due to end in a rally near Downing Street, as of 14:00 BST.

Wow. My rule of thumb is double or treble what the official police estimate is.

 

[8ball]

Wow. My rule of thumb is double or treble what the official police estimate is.

.. and if it comes out at about half what the organisers are saying, it’s probably quite close.

 

[Wilf]

Entirely an aside, but I always wonder why the police underestimate the size of demos? There's the obvious reason of course, undermining support for whichever group is demonstrating. However I'd have thought their case for better resources is also undermined if they minimise the number of people they say are on the streets, travelling through the transport network etc.

 

[Chz]

Some good statements in there, even if what's said and what's done don't always align. I can't imagine Netanyahu is happy about promoting the two state solution.


Remarks by Chargé d’Affaires Ambassador Beth Jones at the Cairo Peace Summit

As Delivered

President El-Sisi, heads of state and government, ministers, colleagues:

The United States is grateful for the leadership demonstrated by President Sisi and the Egyptian government to gather us all in Cairo today to recommit ourselves to the prospect of a peaceful, stable Middle East.

In contrast to that vision, on October 7 Hamas unleashed pure, unadulterated evil on Israel and civilians as well as the Palestinian people – whom they purport to represent – in a demonstration of moral depravity, exasperation, and political weakness. More than 1,400 people were slaughtered in Israel. Scores of innocents — from infants to elderly grandparents, Israelis, Americans, and others — taken hostage. These actions demonstrated Hamas' disregard for the safety and wellbeing of the Palestinian people, whom it placed in harm's way and in the crosshairs of Israel's efforts to defend itself and its citizens.

Palestinian civilians are not to blame and should not suffer for Hamas’ horrific terrorism. President Biden cautioned Israel not to become blinded by rage. Civilian lives must be protected, and assistance must urgently reach those in need. We will continue to work closely with our partners in the region to stress the importance of upholding the law of war, respect for international humanitarian law, supporting those who are trying to get people to safety or provide assistance, and facilitating access to food, water, medical care, and shelter.

I want to make our position clear: like everyone in this hall, the United States knows that the vast majority of Palestinians are not Hamas, and Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people. To conflate the two only prolongs part of the misunderstanding at the very heart of this crisis. The United States remains committed to the Palestinian people’s right to dignity, to self-determination. We are still the world’s largest contributor of aid to the Palestinian people and remain committed to their aspirations for a two-state solution. I am heartbroken by the tragic loss of Palestinian life, including the explosion at Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza. As President Biden has said, we mourn every innocent life lost, particularly those of innocent children and stand with the Palestinian people who want to live in peace and have opportunity for themselves and their children. We cannot marginalize the very same community we need as part of an ultimate solution.

In recognition of this need, on October 18 President Biden announced that the United States is providing $100 million in humanitarian assistance for the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. This funding will help support over a million displaced and conflict-affected people with clean water, food, hygiene support, medical care, and other essential needs—people already being helped through existing U.S. support to partners. The President has also asked for over $10 billion in supplemental funding to address humanitarian crises around the world, including in Gaza. We are grateful for the constructive and thoughtful engagement of our Egyptian partners to build the mechanisms necessary to allow humanitarian assistance to flow into Gaza via the Rafah border crossing for distribution by UN and other humanitarian agencies to the Palestinian people. We thank Egypt, Israel and the UN for the first truck convoy of assistance that went through Rafah earlier today.

To ensure we are doing everything possible to help get urgent assistance into Gaza, President Biden named Ambassador David Satterfield as the U.S. Special Envoy for Middle East Humanitarian Issues. Ambassador Satterfield is in the region and is working in lockstep with the UN, Egypt, Jordan, Israel, and other regional stakeholders to allow humanitarian assistance to reach the Palestinian people in need.

More broadly, President Biden and Secretary Blinken have unequivocally reaffirmed the United States' support for a durable, lasting peace in the Middle East, built on the foundation of a two-state solution. We must keep pursuing a path so that Israel and the Palestinian people can both live safely, in security, in dignity, and in peace. Egypt is an indispensable partner in that endeavor.
Remarks by Chargé d’Affaires Ambassador Beth Jones at the Cairo Peace Summit

 

[Gramsci]

It's great this thread is now about the UK Labour party. Perhaps the splitters should start a new party, the Labour (Freedom to Deride the Apartheid Zionist Entity) Party. I'm sure they'd do well in a general election.

I was not saying that.

What I was saying was I thought Labour party was supposed to be a broad church. There are going to be different views on Palestine/ Israel.

What's been happening is that anyone in Labour party who takes a different view to Starmer cannot attend demos for example

Its led to Cllrs resigning. I was listening to two on Owen Jones youtube channel. They come across as average middle of the road Labour except that they are middle east background and muslim. So the party is better off without splitters like this? THey have both resigned.

Apart from anything else this is not democratic.

As the recent demos show there is section of people in this country- not full on political activists- whose views on Palestine / Isreal deserve imo some representation.

To tell people they are splitters and should go off into the political wilderness is not democratic. Its treating a section of the population of this country as though they don't deserve representation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Entirely an aside, but I always wonder why the police underestimate the size of demos? There's the obvious reason of course, undermining support for whichever group is demonstrating. However I'd have thought their case for better resources is also undermined if they minimise the number of people they say are on the streets, travelling through the transport network etc.

I don't know why anyone gives their estimates any credence, they don't know what 100,000 people looks like any more than you or I do. They don't appear to have any rationale or calculation behind their figures, and as there's no history of counting protestors outside a very few demos like the countryside alliance march about 20 years ago (and a counting zone presents its own issues) they have no real expertise to offer. Even now there's no real knowledge of how many people attended the 15.2.03 anti-war demo, witn estimates varying by a million or more. Some indication of the size may come from tfl data, or use of various formulas on photographs. But tldr? Even if no one knows it never hurts to double the cop guess

 

[Pickman's model]

It's great this thread is now about the UK Labour party. Perhaps the splitters should start a new party, the Labour (Freedom to Deride the Apartheid Zionist Entity) Party. I'm sure they'd do well in a general election.

You're not really that interested in facts or neutrality, all your protestations to the contrary being worthless

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know why anyone gives their estimates any credence, they don't know what 100,000 people looks like any more than you or I do. They don't appear to have any rationale or calculation behind their figures, and as there's no history of counting protestors outside a very few demos like the countryside alliance march about 20 years ago (and a counting zone presents its own issues) they have no real expertise to offer. Even now there's no real knowledge of how many people attended the 15.2.03 anti-war demo, witn estimates varying by a million or more. Some indication of the size may come from tfl data, or use of various formulas on photographs. But tldr? Even if no one knows it never hurts to double the cop guess

Yes and no. I have a good idea what crowds of between 5,000 and 50,000 look like from attending sports events.

So the police estimate of 10,000 for last week was ludicrously low. That's two Leyton Orients. I can guarantee it was way higher than that. A couple of Fulhams at least.

This week was way, way more than a Wembley.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Entirely an aside, but I always wonder why the police underestimate the size of demos? There's the obvious reason of course, undermining support for whichever group is demonstrating. However I'd have thought their case for better resources is also undermined if they minimise the number of people they say are on the streets, travelling through the transport network etc.

I think it’s. The obvious reason…

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Massive turnout today, especially considering the forecast.

For estimating numbers, as a rule of thumb, what ever the police say, double it. Whatever the SWP say, half it.

 

[two sheds]

It's great this thread is now about the UK Labour party. Perhaps the splitters should start a new party, the Labour (Freedom to Deride the Apartheid Zionist Entity) Party. I'm sure they'd do well in a general election.

Can you please stop going on about the Labour party in this thread

 

[Wilf]

I think it’s. The obvious reason…

Yep, I put it rather naively. Suppose I meant 'in the battle between their and the Home Office's hostility to protesters v seeking more resources, why does the former always win out?'

 

[magneze]

Entirely an aside, but I always wonder why the police underestimate the size of demos? There's the obvious reason of course, undermining support for whichever group is demonstrating. However I'd have thought their case for better resources is also undermined if they minimise the number of people they say are on the streets, travelling through the transport network etc.

The need to be arseholes outweighs the need to do the job properly.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Regarding the numbers, a quick google shows that most UK news outlets - Mail, Guardian, BBC, Sky, Evening Standard - are repeating the police figure for today of 100,000. Clearly that's a number they just pulled out of their arses, like the 10,000 for last week. We can safely assume it was a lot more than that, but it appears to be the number that is going to stick. I've not seen the SWP's claimed number yet.

As to whether or not a reasonably accurate estimate could be made, well the coppers have helicopters hovering over it. They could take a photo of the whole route and come up with a decent estimate. But that would require an honest police force.