Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Aladdin]

Is the end coming for Israel in the form of a military response from it's Arab neighbours?

Get a grip. If we can’t discuss these things without losing ourselves in the emotion of it all the time we’ll get nowhere.

You think our discussions have any power over what is happening / will happen ?

Here's a claimed audio intercept of Hamas discussing it

That doesn't ring true. Sounds scripted

It's amazing that with all their operational security, by means of which they flew under the zionists' radar, and their knowledge of their enclave hamas don't know where cemeteries are in gaza, they're willing to use names in communications, and they broadcast en clair

Yep.

 

[Aladdin]

Depends how good their monitoring or search software is. It might be real state of the art stuff. As might their ability to concoct such stuff themselves in a short space of time.

Yes. Well...how come they missed all the Hamas plans for the past 2 years and suddenly they have this conversation with names and very clear details?

 

[pbsmooth]

You in favour of a ceasefire or do you think it sends the wrong message out regarding Hamas?

We had some sort of cease fire and plans for further peace talks and Hamas didn't want that, which started this latest round in the first place.

 

[emanymton]

Not really - assuming this is a genuine intercept.

What you do deliberately, having thought about it, is often very difficult to what you do in a panic when something both very bad, and completely unexpected happens.

It is interesting how people who yesterday were saying that it's very important that the Israelis did this because it shows what utter shits they are are now saying that it doesn't matter if the Israelis did this, because it's the kind of thing they do....

When I say interesting, of course what I mean is utterly predictable....

It might well be the Israelis, but the pictures we've seen so far don't show much blast damage, or a crater (with a bomb, you get one or the other, often both, but not neither - but do show lots of fire damage.

My thoughts on this are that I'm not qualified to make a determination about what happened from a few seconds of a video clip on twitter that probably isn't even the incident in question. And I don't think anyone else is either. I also don't think there is anything close to an objective opinion I would trust anyway.

What we do know is that if it was Israel it could have been deliberate or accidental. If it was not Israel it was almost certainly accidental. And most importantly if Israel was not attacking Gaza in the fashion that they are it would not have happened.
That is enough, for me at least, to say that Israel bears a large portion of the responsibility for this even if it was not them directly.

 

[The39thStep]

I'm all in favour of the fighting and random killing to stop and everyone sitting round a table and having a few beers whilst they try and settle it peacefully but alas it isn't up to me is it?
If either side announced a ceasefire the other would just carry on, there is no advantage to Israel or Hamas of a ceasefire at the moment other than getting aid in and the injured out and neither of the sides fighting care too much about that.
Even if Biden did put pressure on Istre

Ta. I was interested in whether you believed sending the wrong message out about Hamas was more or less important than a ceasefire. Not sure that beers on the table may be the most appropriate refreshment to have tbh.

 

[The39thStep]

We had some sort of cease fire and plans for further peace talks and Hamas didn't want that, which started this latest round in the first place.

I see that the fence you said you were sitting on is swaying to one side again

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Sweet.

View attachment 395962

Looks and sounds like a proper love-in, at least the public part.

 

[emanymton]

Yes. Well...how come they missed all the Hamas plans for the past 2 years and suddenly they have this conversation with names and very clear details?

Not saying if the recording is real or not. I don't know.

But because if you are planning a big operation you take security seriously, and certainty don't talk about it on anything that can be intercepted. If you are reacting to shit happing right now security is less important than speed of communication.

 

[brogdale]

Looks and sounds like a proper love-in, at least the public part.

Biden’s “speech” will have done nothing to quell the MAGA line that he’s senile.

 

[pbsmooth]

I see that the fence you said you were sitting on is swaying to one side again

What do you mean? Which part are you disagreeing with? Just trying to provide some balance to some of the more blinkered points.

 

[strung out]

I'm not getting bogged down in this speculation. If you want to go down a denialist route then you do you and I find that understandable tbh. I don't think anybody here (myself included) has a well tuned moral compass for dealing with the overall situation.

What a world we’re living in that wanting to establish the facts rather than proclaiming something as truth or lies with minutes of a tragedy is now classed as denialism.

 

[xenon]

I'm not getting bogged down in this speculation. If you want to go down a denialist route then you do you and I find that understandable tbh. I don't think anybody here (myself included) has a well tuned moral compass for dealing with the overall situation.

denialist You’ve made your mind up, any evidence to the contrary is conspiracy or denial. your moral compass might be skewed butdon’t accuse the same of everyone else posting here. Sort yourself out.

 

[Knotted]

I do think the both sidesism that we're seeing on this thread is morally repugnant. The painting of Hamas as irrational jihadists who are the main problem for people in Gaza who in turn are in the main opposed to them is goofy. It's a convenient fiction. The problem is the governments on both sides etc. If you're looking for personal convenience in a situation like this then you need to ask yourself some serious questions.

(And no, the Israeli government aren't irrational either and their current operations in Gaza have popular support.)

Edit: not directed against xenon

 

[pbsmooth]

Deny list? You’ve made your mind up, any evidence to the contrary is conspiracy or denial list. your moral compass might be skewed butdon’t accuse the same of everyone else posting here. Sort yourself out.

I think it's fair to say lots of people on this thread have made their minds up.

 

[Petcha]

I don't think it's exactly beyond the realms of possibility that some Islamic Jihad tosser misfired a missile and hit a hospital - it's maybe a more likely scenario than the Israelis deliberately bombing a hospital just as the American president is about to board Air Force One on a visit to remind them to try to not kill too many civilians, if possible.

I think this is the most likely scenario to be honest. But as others have said, everyone's already made up their minds. What a mess.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Is the end coming for Israel in the form of a military response from it's Arab neighbours?


You think our discussions have any power over what is happening / will happen ?


That doesn't ring true. Sounds scripted

Yep.

Individually or collectively?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams so who knows what actually happened.

Eh?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Yes they're well-known liars and just on a technical point it's hard to believe that of all the things being intercepted the zionists are able to identify this conversation really quickly.

….especially when they didnt pick up on the original planned attack….

 

[Ax^]

filling the space with as much misinformation as possible to mud the water enough, so no conclusion scan be found from last night does look like it a deliberate act from the IDF atm

 

[CNT36]

….especially when they didnt pick up on the original planned attack….

Hamas is a big organisation with various wings and factions. Different parts of it may have different levels of discipline when communicating. The need for surprise is decreased so they may be comminicating more openly. It would be a pretty stupid thing to say but once you start letting the self restraint ease...
It has also been suggested there was a degree of confirmation bias on Israel's part before the attack. They didn't think one was coming and ignored warnings and evidence to the contrary so may have picked up relevant information just not acted on it.

 

[mojo pixy]

Basically, I don't trust anything the IDF or Israeli government say. Therefore at some point I may be inclined to accept their version of events, but only when it's been definitively verified by some non-israeli sources. Till then, given historical experience, its not unreasonable to decline to believe that the IDF didn't either deliberately or mistakenly blow up a hospital in Gaza.

I think many people are in a similar position tbh.

 

[kebabking]

Basically, I don't trust anything the IDF or Israeli government say. Therefore at some point I may be inclined to accept their version of events, but only when it's been definitively verified by some non-israeli sources. Till then, given historical experience, its not unreasonable to decline to believe that the IDF didn't either deliberately or mistakenly blow up a hospital in Gaza.

I think many people are in a similar position tbh.

I have no problem with a detached cynicism with regards to what the Israeli state says, but to not afford the same to Hamas, a group that also lies as easily and regularly as it breathes, seems a bit odd/ridiculously niave...

Its also not just about those two actors.

 

[Petcha]

Basically, I don't trust anything the IDF or Israeli government say. Therefore at some point I may be inclined to accept their version of events, but only when it's been definitively verified by some non-israeli sources. Till then, given historical experience, its not unreasonable to decline to believe that the IDF didn't either deliberately or mistakenly blow up a hospital in Gaza.

I think many people are in a similar position tbh.

It's a tricky one. Both 'teams' as Biden rather stupidly put it, are utterly awful, lying cunts. We'll never have a definitive, neutral answer I dont think. But I personally don't think Israel would squander all the global love they were getting by doing something like that. A tragic accident does seem the most likely version.

 

[Idris2002]

But I personally don't think Israel would squander all the global love they were getting by doing something like that.

Why would they be concerned about global love? Their whole thing has been "no one likes us, we don't care". For days genocidal rhetoric has been coming out of their political class and their media, and now it looks like Sleepy Joe will have their backs no matter what happens.

As for the hospital, I think Israel probably did bomb it, but is now committed to saying it didn't. And even if it genuinely didn't bomb it, to keep up the story that it wasn't responsible, it will have to stop bombing hospitals in general.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

It's a tricky one. Both 'teams' as Biden rather stupidly put it, are utterly awful, lying cunts. We'll never have a definitive, neutral answer I dont think. But I personally don't think Israel would squander all the global love they were getting by doing something like that. A tragic accident does seem the most likely version.

Not sure to what extent they were getting global love. They've already proven themselves somewhat reckless in getting revenge.

I think I'd rather wait a bit longer, see if any side has more evidence, take in a bit more analysis, before I decide who to believe on this one.

 

[Petcha]

Why would they be concerned about global love? Their whole thing has been "no one likes us, we don't care". For days genocidal rhetoric has been coming out of their political class and their media, and now it looks like Sleepy Joe will have their backs no matter what happens.

As for the hospital, I think Israel probably did bomb it, but is now committed to saying it didn't. And even if it genuinely didn't bomb it, to keep up the story that it wasn't responsible, it will have to stop bombing hospitals in general.

By global love I mean they finally had the excuse they wanted to take over Gaza and not many in the international community were not going to stand in their way this time. The hospital has taken away a lot of that capital.

 

[belboid]

Not sure to what extent they were getting global love.

they got enough of it to go ahead with targeting civilians and make them face collective punishment. That Biden has said that it 'appears the other side did it' gives them even more support for them continuing to do so.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

they got enough of it to go ahead with targeting civilians and make them face collective punishment. That Biden has said that it 'appears the other side did it' gives them even more support for them continuing to do so.

Love from some big players, but I don't think necessarily from the people they represent. Seem to be an increasing number of dissenting voices now. Though they might not matter if Israel has the full blessing of Sleepy Joe.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

After waking up and scanning this thread seeing certain people spreading Netanyahu’s disinformation about the Israeli strike on the hospital yesterday my faith in humanity genuinely dropped to rock bottom. The only independently verified video confirms it was obviously an Israeli strike. Platinumsage your efforts to cover up this war crime will never be forgotten.

I just walked a few hundred yards to a shop feeling pretty miserable but in that short walk I had one grandad stop me in the street as he spotted my keffiyeh and then moments later a young lad on an electric scooter also spotted the keffiyeh and shouted “Falastine!” as he went past.

Faith in humanity restored.

 

[Rob Ray]

given historical experience, its not unreasonable to decline to believe that the IDF didn't either deliberately or mistakenly blow up a hospital in Gaza.

It's very definitely not like they've never blown up a hospital regardless of people's takes on recent events - afaik they're still to answer for that time in 2014 even if they're innocent of this one.