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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

But that's not what you and others are attempting to do. The default position here is that the creation and defence of the state of Israel is fundamentally immoral, so that can be used to whitewash any action against it or its people, no matter how heinous.

QED this thread.
The continuing oppression of the Palestinians is fundamentally immoral. Their right to fight back is absolute.
 
But that's not what you and others are attempting to do. The default position here is that the creation and defence of the state of Israel is fundamentally immoral, so that can be used to whitewash any action against it or its people, no matter how heinous.

QED this thread.

half way down the line of if you criticise the state of Israel then you are being anti semetic :hmm:
 
The Israel government aren't baby eating monsters slavering over the chance to murder Palestinian children, they are hard-headed politicians who are making practical and very ruthless decisions with one eye on domestic opinion and another on international opinion that actually matters (ie in Washington). The Arab street and the European one for that matter is simply insignificant. They don't want to actively harm the civilian population in Gaza but they're very willing to accept there will be collateral damage.
Some of them aren't far off that. They see Palestinian children as a threat to the future of Israel. Of course, it is generally framed in the form of 'you kill our children, and that is why we have to kill yours', as Golda Meir said. Victim-blaming. And we see this played out again and again - Israel is attacked first and then Israel retaliates. But Israel is constantly attacking Palestinians.

Israeli Minister for National Security is very open about wanting to 'encourage emigration'. He supports the idea of segregated maternity wards. He is a fan of Meir Kahane, who wanted to outlaw sex between Jews and non-Jews.
 
The continuing oppression of the Palestinians is fundamentally immoral. Their right to fight back is absolute.

Incredible you seem to equate a reactionary and oppressive organisation who've killed and kidnapped hundreds of the Jewish working class (and plenty of Palestinians including trade unionists, gays, etc.) with all Palestinians and see that as absolutely fine.
 
But that's not what you and others are attempting to do. The default position here is that the creation and defence of the state of Israel is fundamentally immoral, so that can be used to whitewash any action against it or its people, no matter how heinous.

QED this thread.

This is bullshit Spy. At least regarding the defence part.

No one is against Israel defending itself if invaded. But this has come to be equated with its administration of the occupied territories and its continuous gross violations of human rights, UN resolutions, its own laws... the list goes on. And how many Palestinians have died just since 2000 alone through Israel's brutal policies.

My Dad and friends cheered Israel on in the '67 war when they were young. It was the plucky underling giving the aggressors a massive kicking! But things have changed. Who is cheering Israel on now? Psychopaths and right wing cunts and people in Israel who have sadly lost all perspective. Even people who broadly support Israel don't have the heart to cheer them on. It's not equatable to some anti terrorist opperation carried out by Brits in Ireland or French security forces against ISIS. It's a full on war against civilians.
 
Hamas don't represent Palestinians or any sort of liberatory vision or practice, and it's shocking to see people on the left equate them with all Palestinians and forget that they've destroyed and continue to repress anything at all better, and also likely don't give much of a fuck about what's going to happen to people in Gaza now, probably part of their grand plan.

From what I understand the domestic criticisms of Hamas are usually separated from their role as resistance fighters. We don't have any Palestinian voices on here let alone anybody from Gaza. It's all too easy to say this sort of thing.
 
Tell me more about this coalition of hard headed politicians making practical decisions Micki
Do you seriously believe that either the Israeli cabinet or the Hamas high command are sat around tables cacklingly like mad witches at the thought of all this death. They've no problems with it of course but in both cases it is simply a means to an end.
 
The continuing oppression of the Palestinians is fundamentally immoral. Their right to fight back is absolute.
So, how do you view the morality of the murder of young people at a music festival? Slaughtering innocent people is not 'fighting back' it is cowardly and vile murder.

Do the Palestinian people support Hamas and its actions or not? I appreciate that in that society the people with the guns may well be in 'government', without necessarily having the support of the majority of the people.
 
The continuing oppression of the Palestinians is fundamentally immoral. Their right to fight back is absolute.

But. it's the manner in which this 'fight back' has been carried out that has been horrific and likely to seriously back-fire in all manner of ways, their actions are not dissimilar to what the Russians have been doing in Ukraine, which is why any sane person will condemn Hamas for what they have done, not that I expect you will.
 
So, how do you view the morality of the murder of young people at a music festival? Slaughtering innocent people is not 'fighting back' it is cowardly and vile murder.
It reminds me of The Battle of Algiers and the bombs planted in Algiers in the 50s. They were also targetting young people having fun. They did it to draw international attention to their plight. And it worked.
 
But that's not what you and others are attempting to do. The default position here is that the creation and defence of the state of Israel is fundamentally immoral, so that can be used to whitewash any action against it or its people, no matter how heinous.

QED this thread.
tbh it is not so much that there is a country called israel, but that there is a country called israel which was founded on terrorism and 'ethnic cleansing', and which has for the past 75 years developed into a brutal apartheid state. indeed, it was one of apartheid south africa's closest allies. most of us here, i think, object to racism, apartheid, colonialism and so forth, to the illegal occupation of the west bank, the golan heights and the vile conditions imposed on gaza. despite pious pleas above, i think it is impossible to understand the actions of the past few days outside the context of the zionists turning gaza into a massive ghetto where despite no longer occupying it, they retain control over the lives of 2.3m people. Subaltern violence is brutal, the Indian mutiny / first war of independence for example. But it's often lauded in the face of overwhelming military might like the Warsaw uprisings. Should the oppressed accept their oppression, or should they seek to end it, even in the event of inevitable failure and further suffering?
 
It reminds me of The Battle of Algiers and the bombs planted in Algiers in the 50s. They were also targetting young people having fun. They did it to draw international attention to their plight. And it worked.

Is 'it worked' a reason to support it then? Nothing to do with aims or politics or methods and what all those might be?
 
Is 'it worked' a reason to support it then? Nothing to do with aims or politics or methods and what all those might be?
I didn't say that I supported it. ftr I don't. The whole situation, including the killing of the rave kids, fills me with despair. But someone my age who has lived their whole life in an Israeli controlled prison is likely to view the killing of Israelis differently from me in any case.
 
No one is against Israel defending itself if invaded.

Oh, come on. Take a look at this thread. TC might be the most outspoken anti-Israeli here, but at least he's got the bollocks to say what he thinks. Go back and take a look at all the likes he's collected from cheerleaders on the sidelines who haven't posted.

But this has come to be equated with its administration of the occupied territories and its continuous gross violations of human rights, UN resolutions, its own laws...

Yes, it has. My argument is with those who consider that to be a relevant factor in Hamas' decision to rape and murder kids.
 
Hamas don't represent Palestinians or any sort of liberatory vision or practice, and it's shocking to see people on the left equate them with all Palestinians and forget that they've destroyed and continue to repress anything at all better, and also likely don't give much of a fuck about what's going to happen to people in Gaza now, probably part of their grand plan.

To be fair, Hamas do represent some Palestinians, but you’re right that they are antithetical to any sort of libertory politics. Everyone on the left knew this during the first intifada where their main role seemed to be terrorising other Palestinians - especially those it regarded as ‘moral deviants’. The type of society they wish to build would be no better than the apartheid regime they seek to replace - the poles of repression would just be reversed and extended, with anybody who doesn’t live by their preferred Islamic scriptures being relegated to second class status, if not expelled, killed or jailed.
 
Incredibly, or perhaps not so incredibly these days, this article from Haaretz (admittedly on the liberal end of the press in Israel but a very brave liberal end ,) is so much better than the discussion on here tbh.

That's an excellent article. And yes, a brave voice in today's Israel. The author understands that you have to understand and acknowledge the history to make any sense of what is going on.
 
Hamas was proscribed in 2001 by the Labour government under the Terrorism Act 2000, passed when Jack Straw was home secretary. Don’t kid yourself that this won’t soon be Labour rhetoric too, especially as they will need to demonstrate that they’re definitely not anti-semitic.
They are terrorists. This is inarguable.
 
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