Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Genocide



It could be a lot higher, that's the conservative estimate

I watched this few weeks ago. He is academic who looks at death toll figures

He worked in Iraq. His view is that one has to go out and do field work to get estimates. Also break down who got killed. Men / women/ children/ civilians etc.

During conflict it's hard to get reliable figures. As infrastructure breaks down.

Doing the field work brought home to him the devastating effects on civilians of war.

Post WW2 international agreements are supposed to protect civilians. It's clear this is not working in Gaza. Wholesale destruction regardless of Palestinian civilians dying.

One of the most moving parts of the talk is about children dying of fright. This was recorded by those he worked with in Iraq. I found it hard to believe but he was saying in extreme cases it does.

The psychological effects of the kind of bombing that Israel is doing is enormous.

Behind the arguments about figures he points out is extreme human suffering.

 

[teqniq]

Possibly a bit of welcome news:

Labour expected to drop challenge to ICC over Netanyahu arrest warrant

Exclusive: UK government appears unlikely to go ahead with legal bid, while Keir Starmer has spoken with Israeli PM over Gaza ceasefire

www.theguardian.com

But:

Gaza war: Israel hits Gaza City as tanks re-enter central areas

Residents say they are seeing some of the heaviest strikes since the war began nine months ago.

www.bbc.com

 

[Gramsci]

Possibly a bit of welcome news:

Labour expected to drop challenge to ICC over Netanyahu arrest warrant

Exclusive: UK government appears unlikely to go ahead with legal bid, while Keir Starmer has spoken with Israeli PM over Gaza ceasefire

www.theguardian.com

But:

Gaza war: Israel hits Gaza City as tanks re-enter central areas

Residents say they are seeing some of the heaviest strikes since the war began nine months ago.

www.bbc.com

What I would like Lammy to look at is the Roadmap and whether the Labour Government will keep or scrap it.

2030 roadmap for UK-Israel bilateral relations

www.gov.uk

In particular this roadmap means UK governments oppose boycotts, reject term Apartheid in relation to Israel state.

Also this:

iii. Combatting de-legitimisation: both countries are committed to fighting all forms of antisemitism including in its modern form of de-legitimisation of the State of Israel, as elaborated in the IHRA definition

Using IHRA definition linking anti semitism to criticising Israel state.

ii. Tackling the disproportionate focus on Israel in the UN and other international bodies, including attempts to delegitimise it or deny its right to self-defence. All states have a duty to comply with their obligations under international law, but scrutiny must be measured, impartial and proportionate. The UK and Israel will work together to tackle the singling out of Israel in the Human Rights Council as well as in other international bodies. In this context, the UK and Israel disagree with the use of the term ‘apartheid’ with regard to Israel.

Under the roadmap Israel State exceptionalism is part of UK/ Israel relations.

Lammy talks of this new Labour government supporting international law and a rules based order.

Fair enough. So is this a new beginning where Israel State exceptionalism is junked?

That Labour will insist on full Israeli withdrawal from Occupied territories in West Bank? And removal of the illegal settlers? As part of a two state solution?

In Guardian Lammy is saying Hamas should have no say in the future as its a terrorist organisation. Does this apply to the extremists who are in Netanyahu cabinet?

Also Lammy needs a history lesson on Hamas. Bit surprised what he said. Even Blair said that they in hindsight should have been included in talks.

Reactions from PA and Balfour project on the Roadmap

Israel/UK Roadmap – the text and the reactions - Balfour Project

Netanyahu and Sunak - Letter in The Times, 28 March 2023 On Friday Rishi Sunak welcomed Benjamin Netanyahu, and stressed the importance of upholding shared “democratic values, including in the proposed judicial reforms in Israel”. Mr Netanyahu went home and sacked his Defence Minister for...

balfourproject.org

Palestinian Ambassador on the Roadmap

If the UK still supports a two-state outcome, the time for talk and empty condemnation has passed. It is time for action. This should include recognition of the State of Palestine on 1967 boundaries and a commitment to the rights of Palestinian refugees.

“The document effectively shields Israel by denouncing attempts to refer Israel to the International Court of Justice as an ‘inappropriate measure’ and denouncing what it defines as a ‘disproportionate focus’ on Israel at the UN,” Dr Zomlot said.

In this case the referral was about the legality of State of Israel occupation of West Bank.

State of Israel are expert at portraying themselves as unfairly criticised for their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. And treating them as second class citizens. Since 1948.

Will new Labour government ditch all this support of Israel?

Sections of Palestine society have tried to use UN and International law to get justice. If violence is to be stopped then Palestinians must be assured that western government will no longer act to undermine this legal based approach by Palestinians. And no longer act as a shield for Israel.

 

[teqniq]

Fucksake:

IDF admits it'll be fighting Hamas insurgency in Gaza for 5 years

As the Israel-Hamas war continues, negotiations seem to have stalled to secure the release of hostages.

abcnews.go.com

Also:

 

[barlimo]

What I would like Lammy to look at is the Roadmap and whether the Labour Government will keep or scrap it.

2030 roadmap for UK-Israel bilateral relations

www.gov.uk

In particular this roadmap means UK governments oppose boycotts, reject term Apartheid in relation to Israel state.

Also this:


Using IHRA definition linking anti semitism to criticising Israel state.



Under the roadmap Israel State exceptionalism is part of UK/ Israel relations.

Lammy talks of this new Labour government supporting international law and a rules based order.

Fair enough. So is this a new beginning where Israel State exceptionalism is junked?

That Labour will insist on full Israeli withdrawal from Occupied territories in West Bank? And removal of the illegal settlers? As part of a two state solution?

In Guardian Lammy is saying Hamas should have no say in the future as its a terrorist organisation. Does this apply to the extremists who are in Netanyahu cabinet?

Also Lammy needs a history lesson on Hamas. Bit surprised what he said. Even Blair said that they in hindsight should have been included in talks.

Reactions from PA and Balfour project on the Roadmap

Israel/UK Roadmap – the text and the reactions - Balfour Project

Netanyahu and Sunak - Letter in The Times, 28 March 2023 On Friday Rishi Sunak welcomed Benjamin Netanyahu, and stressed the importance of upholding shared “democratic values, including in the proposed judicial reforms in Israel”. Mr Netanyahu went home and sacked his Defence Minister for...

balfourproject.org

Palestinian Ambassador on the Roadmap





In this case the referral was about the legality of State of Israel occupation of West Bank.

State of Israel are expert at portraying themselves as unfairly criticised for their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. And treating them as second class citizens. Since 1948.

Will new Labour government ditch all this support of Israel?

Sections of Palestine society have tried to use UN and International law to get justice. If violence is to be stopped then Palestinians must be assured that western government will no longer act to undermine this legal based approach by Palestinians. And no longer act as a shield for Israel.

Will they fuck!

Israel lobby funded half of Keir Starmer’s cabinet

Exclusive: Labour’s top team has accepted over £600,000 from pro-Israel funders.

www.declassifieduk.org

 

[belboid]

God, I wish it was that easy to change Labour Party policy. But of course it isn't, so fuck off barlimo, you racist fuck.

 

[barlimo]

God, I wish it was that easy to change Labour Party policy. But of course it isn't, so fuck off barlimo, you racist fuck.

Have I touched a nerve?

 

[belboid]

No. I just have no idea why you are here.

 

[krtek a houby]

Have I touched a nerve?

You have some nerve, but you're only touching yourself at this stage.

 

[barlimo]

No. I just have no idea why you are here.

I just wanted to point out a relevant fact.

 

[belboid]

I just wanted to point out a relevant fact.

you misspelt racist bollocks

 

[bemused]

Have they even started discussing releasing the hostages?

 

[krtek a houby]

I just wanted to point out a relevant fact.

Your "facts" have been stamped as antisemitic on occasion, so will be taking that with a pinch of salt.

 

[barlimo]

Your "facts" have been stamped as antisemitic on occasion, so will be taking that with a pinch of salt.

Is all criticism of Israel's policies to be classed as anti-Semitic?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is all criticism of Israel's policies to be classed as anti-Semitic?

Just the anti-semitic bits

 

[krtek a houby]

Is all criticism of Israel's policies to be classed as anti-Semitic?

There's bona fide, genuine criticism of Israel's disgraceful policies and then there's the stinking antisemitic dog whistles, tropes and canards that you're fond of posting.

 

[barlimo]

Just the anti-semitic bits

Can we ever expect to get an intelligent answer from a twat like you.

 

[teqniq]

Just in case anyone was under any illusions:

UN experts declare famine has spread throughout Gaza strip

 

[Pickman's model]

Can we ever expect to get an intelligent answer from a twat like you.

I tailor my answers to the poster I'm quoting

 

[mojo pixy]

Is all criticism of Israel's policies to be classed as anti-Semitic?

You should probably just read the thread, this question has been discussed at length. Catch up, then join in

 

[Gramsci]

Can we ever expect to get an intelligent answer from a twat like you.

Please can you shut up.

For a start Pickman's model is one of the more intelligent posters on this site/thread. And is highly critical of Zionism and actions of State of Israel.

I put post about the "Roadmap" and whether this new Labour government will ditch it and then you jump in.

This does not help.

The Tory agreed Roadmap is pro Zionist and anti Palestinian. As the Palestinian ambassador points out.

It puts in the Roadmap that UK should back up State of Israel to extent that it continue to act as a diplomatic shield for State of Israel oppression of Palestinians which has been going on since 48

And yes the Roadmap does do the line that opposition to Zionism is anti Semitic.

Which I personally , having now read a lot of the the history , think is wrong.

Opposing Zionism as a political project./ A State of Israel which practises Apartheid and is ongoing stealing more land from Palestinians in West Bank is not anti Semitic.

Nor Is supporting a One State Solution. As some Palestinians think now the so called peace process is a sham.

Zionist structures need to be dismantled within State of Israel and in occupied territories. Whether their is one state or two state solution. Also State of Israel needs to recognise the Nakba.

Major thing for me is that my country stops giving an Apartheid state any support. Either diplomatic/ moral/ or arms license.

From its earliest time Zionism/ State of Israel has depended on Western backers. Even if its treated them with contempt. This must stop.

And reading the history this country has a lot to answer for in making this situation in Palestine.

 

[Gramsci]

This came up on Novara media.

Does not bode well for Labour government future policy on Palestine.

When asked about rebuilding relationship with Muslim labour voters his answer is in effect we have got a big mandate and you can go take a hike.

This contrasts with how he went to great lengths to listen to the Jewish community in this country.

Interviewer asked him twice and he came out with , as they said in Novara, must be the agreed response. That Labour have a big mandate etc. So Muslim voters are going to be ignored.

Nice. A different way to do politics.

 

[barlimo]

Labour MPs have accepted over £280,000 from Israel lobby

Twenty percent of Labour’s sitting MPs have been funded by pro-Israel groups or individuals – including 15 who have been directly funded by the Israeli state.

www.declassifieduk.org

 

[barlimo]

Please can you shut up.

For a start Pickman's model is one of the more intelligent posters on this site/thread. And is highly critical of Zionism and actions of State of Israel.

I put post about the "Roadmap" and whether this new Labour government will ditch it and then you jump in.

This does not help.

The Tory agreed Roadmap is pro Zionist and anti Palestinian. As the Palestinian ambassador points out.

It puts in the Roadmap that UK should back up State of Israel to extent that it continue to act as a diplomatic shield for State of Israel oppression of Palestinians which has been going on since 48

And yes the Roadmap does do the line that opposition to Zionism is anti Semitic.

Which I personally , having now read a lot of the the history , think is wrong.

Opposing Zionism as a political project./ A State of Israel which practises Apartheid and is ongoing stealing more land from Palestinians in West Bank is not anti Semitic.

Nor Is supporting a One State Solution. As some Palestinians think now the so called peace process is a sham.

Zionist structures need to be dismantled within State of Israel and in occupied territories. Whether their is one state or two state solution. Also State of Israel needs to recognise the Nakba.

Major thing for me is that my country stops giving an Apartheid state any support. Either diplomatic/ moral/ or arms license.

From its earliest time Zionism/ State of Israel has depended on Western backers. Even if its treated them with contempt. This must stop.

And reading the history this country has a lot to answer for in making this situation in Palestine.

This is not your personal thread, forum or anything else. Same applies to your buddies.

 

[krtek a houby]

This is not your personal thread, forum or anything else. Same applies to your buddies.

It's not your personal 4chan Reich, either. So, away with your antisemitic agenda.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is not your personal thread, forum or anything else. Same applies to your buddies.

No indeed. This is a forum for robust discussion and your contributions don't cut the mustard. Tbh I'm surprised you've not been hoofed off the boards yet and have managed to remain here for 10 years. But I don't suppose you'll make it to 11

 

[barlimo]

It's not your personal 4chan Reich, either. So, away with your antisemitic agenda.

I invariably read 'antisemitic' as just criticism of Israel.

 

[krtek a houby]

I invariably read 'antisemitic' as just criticism of Israel.

Antisemitic scumbags usually do.

As stated previously, there's valid criticism of the Israeli government and the cowardly actions of the IDF... and then there's input from the likes of you.

 

[mojo pixy]

I invariably read 'antisemitic' as just criticism of Israel.

Yeah well as I said before, try reading the thread before you embarrass yourself any further.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This came up on Novara media.

Does not bode well for Labour government future policy on Palestine.

When asked about rebuilding relationship with Muslim labour voters his answer is in effect we have got a big mandate and you can go take a hike.

This contrasts with how he went to great lengths to listen to the Jewish community in this country.

Interviewer asked him twice and he came out with , as they said in Novara, must be the agreed response. That Labour have a big mandate etc. So Muslim voters are going to be ignored.

Nice. A different way to do politics.

We can expect more of the same from Starmer. He will take exactly the same line the tories did. Condemning on general terms but resisting any actual action to stop the slaughter, abstaining at best at the UN, parrotting meaningless nothings about a two-state solution, and generally kowtowing to the US over the issue.

We already knew this. I'd have been amazed if Starmer had done anything other than totally ignore the fact that he's lost a whole section of the population.