Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[zahir]

We already knew this. I'd have been amazed if Starmer had done anything other than totally ignore the fact that he's lost a whole section of the population.

Some figures for the loss of votes:

The impact of Muslim voters at the 2024 election was even bigger than you think

Labour lost more than 300,000 votes in areas with the highest Muslim populations, leaving it with fewer supporters overall than it had in 2019

hyphenonline.com

There was a dramatic Labour collapse in the constituencies with the highest proportions of Muslims. My own research over the last 36 hours has found that, in the 21 seats where more than 30% of the population is Muslim, Labour’s share dropped by 29 percentage points from an average 65% in 2019 to 36% in 2024. Turnout also fell more steeply than average (down 11.2 percentage points) in these seats, suggesting that some disaffected Muslim electors abstained while others voted for other candidates. In these seats, the total number of Labour votes fell from more than 600,000 in 2019 to just under 300,000 in 2024. That is the equivalent of more than half the total national drop in the Labour vote between the two elections (Labour has lost 537,688 votes compared with 2019).

The loss of Muslim votes was also a problem for Labour in some seats with smaller Muslim communities. In the 43 next-most Muslim constituencies (between 15% and 30% of the population), Labour lost another 300,000 votes. That means the equivalent of the entire national drop in Labour’s vote since 2019 happened in these 64 “most Muslim” seats.

 

[Pickman's model]

We can expect more of the same from Starmer. He will take exactly the same line the tories did. Condemning on general terms but resisting any actual action to stop the slaughter, abstaining at best at the UN, parrotting meaningless nothings about a two-state solution, and generally kowtowing to the US over the issue.

We already knew this. I'd have been amazed if Starmer had done anything other than totally ignore the fact that he's lost a whole section of the population.

He's going to lose more. I don't know if he is as stupid as he seems. The disaffection now by Muslims seems likely to be deeper and longer lasting than the previous alienation of the early/mid 2000s. Back then there was much talk of valuing the contributions of British Muslims. Now there isn't. His talk of sending back Bangladeshis was really stupid. His interview where he said the zionists had the right to starve Palestinians was really stupid. He behaves like he has a massive mandate when it's built on sand, with fewer labour votes than 2019 and nearly half of those against the tories rather than for his new new labour. If I was andrew feinstein I'd be spending the next 5 years positioning myself to run in 2029,when I think there's a real chance shammer and his government will be held in at least as much contempt as the sunak administration was.

So I don't know that shammer's a thick as pigshit wanker. But every time he opens his mouth I am left more persuaded that he is

 

[Knotted]

This is well worth reading. Journalist Jeremy Scahill managed to get interviews with some top Hamas officials including Sinwar. There's a long report on it here:

On the Record with Hamas

In a Drop Site News exclusive, Hamas officials discuss their motivations, political objectives, and the human costs of their armed uprising against Israel

www.dropsitenews.com

He also got interviews with Mouin Rabbani, Susan Abulhawa, Rashid Khalidi (all three of those well worth paying attention to if you don't already) and the Israeli negotiator Gershon Baskin.

This from Baskin is particularly interesting:

Baskin told me it was immediately clear that Hamas did not prepare for holding so many civilians and was caught off guard when other Palestinian groups and individuals who flooded into Israel that day took large numbers of hostages, including senior citizens and children. “They ended up simply taking people back into Gaza without thinking about the logistics, about what price they wanted for them,” Baskin said. “From day four of the war, I was talking to Hamas already about a deal for the women, the children, the elderly, and the wounded, which I thought was the low hanging fruit, because Hamas would not have been set up to deal with them. They wanted to get rid of them.”

Israel has used the civilian hostages as the primary justification for their continued siege. Hamad confirmed that negotiations began almost immediately after the October 7 attacks. He told me that “from the first week, we talked to some people, some mediators, that we want to return the civilians, but Israel refused.”

There's lots more in there, and I haven't read it all yet. And certainly not everybody is on the same page - Khalidi is particularly critical of Hamas. But this paints a Gaza eye view of the conflict that you don't usually get. The focus is on October 7th and it's immediate aftermath.

 

[barlimo]

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I tailor my answers to the poster I'm quoting

So do I so fuck off and don't bother me again.

 

[Pickman's model]

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So do I so fuck off and don't bother me again.

Oh noes told to fuck off on the internets by a no mark cunt oh woes is me

 

[Knotted]

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So do I so fuck off and don't bother me again.

This is how it's going to go - You're going to have an unpleasant time on here and at some point you will get banned.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is how it's going to go - You're going to have an unpleasant time on here and at some point you will get banned.

That'll be pleasant though

 

[barlimo]

I can't help but notice how most forums are populated with toxic personalities who seem to be in cliques together.

 

[dylanredefined]

Some figures for the loss of votes:

The impact of Muslim voters at the 2024 election was even bigger than you think

Labour lost more than 300,000 votes in areas with the highest Muslim populations, leaving it with fewer supporters overall than it had in 2019

hyphenonline.com

Yet he won a majority so nothing is going to change.

 

[krtek a houby]

I can't help but notice how most forums are populated with toxic personalities who seem to be in cliques together.

You need to review yourself and then come back and tell us all about being toxic.

But yes, it's clear you can't help yourself.

 

[krtek a houby]

A reminder for our most beloved bigot

Jewish wife and relatives! So wonder what that cunt of a prime minister's excuse is.

The Holocausts is Israel's get out of jail card' they use it to justify just about any anything. I'm so sick of hearing about it that I have Holocaust fatigue. BTW 27 million Russians died in WW2 but I never hear them moaning about it.

Not surprising as both Labour and Conservative parties are funded by Jews.

It's the final solution!

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't help but notice how most forums are populated with toxic personalities who seem to be in cliques together.

I think you're trying to out a positive spin on your having no friends

 

[teqniq]

Please see above as to why caving in to US pressure would be a bad idea:

US ‘pressuring UK to block ICC’s Netanyahu arrest warrant’

Human rights barrister says US expects Labour government to continue UK challenge to proposed action against Israeli PM

www.theguardian.com

 

[barlimo]

I struggle to decide which is the more loathsome: the Israeli leadership or our arse licking politicians.

 

[krtek a houby]

I struggle

You should write a book about your struggle.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

More grim reading.

Israeli weapons packed with shrapnel causing devastating injuries to children in Gaza, doctors say

Surgeons who worked in European and al-Aqsa hospitals describe extensive wounds caused by ‘fragmentation’ shrapnel experts say are designed to maximize casualties

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gramsci]

This is well worth reading. Journalist Jeremy Scahill managed to get interviews with some top Hamas officials including Sinwar. There's a long report on it here:

On the Record with Hamas

In a Drop Site News exclusive, Hamas officials discuss their motivations, political objectives, and the human costs of their armed uprising against Israel

www.dropsitenews.com

He also got interviews with Mouin Rabbani, Susan Abulhawa, Rashid Khalidi (all three of those well worth paying attention to if you don't already) and the Israeli negotiator Gershon Baskin.

This from Baskin is particularly interesting:



There's lots more in there, and I haven't read it all yet. And certainly not everybody is on the same page - Khalidi is particularly critical of Hamas. But this paints a Gaza eye view of the conflict that you don't usually get. The focus is on October 7th and it's immediate aftermath.

Yes. It's very good article.

Shows Hamas are not ISIS. Whilst having Islamic roots they see themselves as part of the Palestinian liberation struggle. They would not get support they do if this did not come first.

Khalidi is good historian. He does criticise a lot of people. He opposed the Oslo agreement/ criticised Arafat for being out of touch. His view is that first intifada was grass roots mobilization by the Palestinian people. Largely non violent civil disobedience. Which made West Bank ungovernable for Israel. This forcing them into talks . Which the exiled PLO messed up by agreeing to Oslo.

Trouble is that kind of fairly non violent civil disobedience no longer works. As Israel has wised up to it. Take the Gaza march of return. Peaceful protest. Israel got snipers to kill and cripple the peaceful protesters.

I agree with the American Palestinian novelist Susan abulhawa that given Israel state violence some kind of attack like this was bound to happen.

 

[Duncan2]

Yes. It's very good article.

Shows Hamas are not ISIS. Whilst having Islamic roots they see themselves as part of the Palestinian liberation struggle. They would not get support they do if this did not come first.

Khalidi is good historian. He does criticise a lot of people. He opposed the Oslo agreement/ criticised Arafat for being out of touch. His view is that first intifada was grass roots mobilization by the Palestinian people. Largely non violent civil disobedience. Which made West Bank ungovernable for Israel. This forcing them into talks . Which the exiled PLO messed up by agreeing to Oslo.

Trouble is that kind of fairly non violent civil disobedience no longer works. As Israel has wised up to it. Take the Gaza march of return. Peaceful protest. Israel got snipers to kill and cripple the peaceful protesters.

I agree with the American Palestinian novelist Susan abulhawa that given Israel state violence some kind of attack like this was bound to happen.

Wonder how long we will wait for Stinker Starmer to publish the legal advice that Cameron et al had been keeping under wraps?

 

[Gramsci]

This is well worth reading. Journalist Jeremy Scahill managed to get interviews with some top Hamas officials including Sinwar. There's a long report on it here:

On the Record with Hamas

In a Drop Site News exclusive, Hamas officials discuss their motivations, political objectives, and the human costs of their armed uprising against Israel

www.dropsitenews.com

He also got interviews with Mouin Rabbani, Susan Abulhawa, Rashid Khalidi (all three of those well worth paying attention to if you don't already) and the Israeli negotiator Gershon Baskin.

This from Baskin is particularly interesting:



There's lots more in there, and I haven't read it all yet. And certainly not everybody is on the same page - Khalidi is particularly critical of Hamas. But this paints a Gaza eye view of the conflict that you don't usually get. The focus is on October 7th and it's immediate aftermath.

This point made by Rabbini is something from this long article that I thought was spot on.

“The problem that the West has with Palestinian resistance is not terrorism. It's not the targeting of civilians. It's not armed resistance. It's resistance full stop,” Rabbani said. “Whether it's massacring civilians or successfully hitting military targets or popular mobilization or boycott campaigns, there is not a single form of Palestinian resistance that the West is prepared to accept

BDS is labeled anti Semitic for example. So what exactly are Palestinians meant to do? This is non violent.

I'm not clear if last government got this through.

UK public bodies banned from imposing their own boycotts against foreign countries

New Bill will ban UK public bodies from imposing their own boycotts

www.gov.uk

Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, Michael Gove said:

It is simply wrong that public bodies have been wasting taxpayers’ time and money pursuing their own foreign policy agenda. The UK must have a consistent approach to foreign policy, set by UK Government.
These campaigns not only undermine the UK’s foreign policy but lead to appalling antisemitic rhetoric and abuse. That is why we have taken this decisive action to stop these disruptive policies once and for all.
My message to these organisations, is to get on with your job and focus on delivering for the public.

The President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews President Marie van der Zyl said:

We are pleased to support the Government’s endeavours in the Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill which will directly hinder the unnecessary and inappropriate targeting of Israel by local authorities and other public institutions.
We appreciate how the Government is working to prevent these organisations from setting their own foreign policy, which all too often creates a deeply divisive local situation as well as being deeply unsettling to local Jewish communities.

I remember my local Council and MP saying supporting a ceasefire was divisive.

The reasonable sounding language that in reality backs up Zionist State.

And to add the BDS campaign was started by Palestinian civil society. Not left wing western conspiracy loons.

Inappropriate targeting. FFS

 

[Gramsci]

BDS bill did not go through.

Exclusive: BDS bill 'effectively dead' amid UK election

The BDS bill, which would outlaw councils from boycotting Israel, has failed to pass parliament meaning it will unlikely to become law in its current form.

www.newarab.com

But:

The Labour Party, which is expected to win the July general election by a landslide, supports a BDS law but voted against the bill due to these concerns.

So not against banning BDS but against the way this Tory bill was worded. Not against the principle.

 

[agricola]

BDS bill did not go through.

Exclusive: BDS bill 'effectively dead' amid UK election

The BDS bill, which would outlaw councils from boycotting Israel, has failed to pass parliament meaning it will unlikely to become law in its current form.

www.newarab.com

But:



So not against banning BDS but against the way this Tory bill was worded. Not against the principle.

In many ways its remarkable how all-encompassing the last Tory policy was of promising the moon and delivering nothing. They didn't do that, despite it being a manifesto commitment, and didn't even do that museum / memorial that was going to ruin Victoria Tower Gardens either.

 

[Pickman's model]

In many ways its remarkable how all-encompassing the last Tory policy was of promising the moon and delivering nothing. They didn't do that, despite it being a manifesto commitment, and didn't even do that museum / memorial that was going to ruin Victoria Tower Gardens either.

They delivered a puddle in which they saw the moon

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

This testimony from a recently released prisoner, in which he states that Ben Gvir personally took part in the torture of detainees.

 

[ID47]

Speaking of torture and crimes against humanity this is from El País (English Edition): ‘I feel complicit’: The moral dilemma of an Israeli doctor who treated Gaza prisoners in a detention and torture center

 

[ska invita]

Nothing is changing, in fact worse than ever
Any press pressure has evaporated
Street pressure out of steam
Vomit inducing situation

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Silence from those so quick to throw the anti semitism card.

 

[agricola]

This testimony from a recently released prisoner, in which he states that Ben Gvir personally took part in the torture of detainees.

Going for the whole gamut of war crimes charges, then?

 

[zahir]

Interview with Arab American US diplomat Hala Rharrit who has resigned over Gaza

 

[Knotted]

Silence from those so quick to throw the anti semitism card.

Sometimes that card should be thrown though. You keep mixing criticisms of Israel's actions with criticism of judaism. I'm running out of passes to give you. Your post about the Zionist chosen was flat out anti-semitic. Christianity has had a horrific history with respect to Jews long before Theordore Herzl and Zionism was a secular political project anyway, and the concept of choseness has long been misused as a casual anti-semitic taunt. If you're going to mix political criticism with religious criticism, you need to be really careful - preferably don't do it at all.

 

[barlimo]

Interestingly the Israelis haven't performed very well considering the amount of weaponry and troops at their disposal. As for their intelligence service, it seems to be non existent unless you believe the nonsense they spin about targeting Hamas. The following list of weapons truly amazes me and note it seems to omit their nuclear capabilities which is said to consist of between 90 - 400 warheads.

How big is Israel’s military and how much funding does it get from the US?

Israel has one of the world’s most powerful militaries, bolstered by more than $3.8bn of military aid a year from the US

www.aljazeera.com