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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Been reminding myself of what a centre left government could do here. But I know when Starmer gets elected he will not.

Spanish PSOE/ Sumar government not only recognise Palestine statehood but joined South Africa in supporting its ICJ genocide case.

Here doing that are you are likely to be accused of being if not anti Semitic then being on the borderline of it.


Predictable response from Israel minister of Foreign Affairs.



I mean am I supposed to take Zionism seriously when government minister of the Zionist state says this?

BTW Likud party member. Not member of one of the far right parties.
I thought likud was a far-right party
 
South Korea issues lawsuits against Israeli officials.

Ynet.

Also UPI.
June 24 (UPI) -- South Korean government officials and other organizations on Monday filed a series of charges leveled against top Israeli government officials, including Israel's president and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, for genocide and other alleged crimes against humanity.

The South Korean lawsuit cites seven high-ranking Israeli officials, such as the country's President Isaac Herzog along with Netanyahu, Israeli Defense Forces Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, Foreign Minister Israel Katz, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir.
 
South Korea issues lawsuits against Israeli officials.

Ynet.

Also UPI.

Misleading headlines; the articles actually say an organisation (which includes 2 of the 300 members of the national assembly) lodged a complaint with the police.
 
Misleading headlines; the articles actually say an organisation (which includes 2 of the 300 members of the national assembly) lodged a complaint with the police.
However, the UPI article states:

June 24 (UPI) -- South Korean government officials and other organizations on Monday filed a series of charges leveled against top Israeli government officials, including Israel's president and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, for genocide and other alleged crimes against humanity.
My bold.
 
However, the UPI article states:


My bold.

Yes, 2 government officials alongside the PSPD and ADI, which are advocacy ngos. I mean credit to them, but point being it absolutely is not 'South Korea does X'. I would love it if they did, but they haven't and afaik still have defence contracts with Israel. I mean a rough equivalent might be Corbyn and someone else filing a case with <dunno what the equivalent would be here; pick your left leaning NGO>.

This is them for reference:

 
On Sunday evening, thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews demonstrated in Jerusalem against last week’s landmark High Court ruling, which mandates the conscription of Haredi youth into the Israeli army. The largest anti-draft rally in a decade united several Haredi factions, whose adherents carried signs that read “We will not enlist in an enemy army,” “We would rather live as Jews than die as Zionists,” “To jail and not to the army,” “Zionism uses Jews as human shields,” and other critical slogans in Hebrew and English.
Beyond the fight against conscription, Sunday’s protest showed signs of a power struggle within Israel’s ultra-Orthodox society. Although the Haredi parties in the Knesset — United Torah Judaism and Shas — oppose conscription and denounced the High Court’s ruling, they have not yet threatened to resign from the government, as some expected they might, nor have they joined the demonstrations. Haredi religious leaders are also angry that their politicians have agreed over the years to the idea of annual conscription quotas, which would gradually increase the number of army recruits from the community. In a show of rage against this perceived complicity, protesters attacked the car of Yitzhak Goldknopf — Israel’s housing and construction minister, and the head of the Agudat Israel faction within United Torah Judaism — with stones and placards, forcing police to rescue him; they later attacked the car of Yaakov Litzman, also of Agudat Israel.
 
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Boris Sprinkler

Forensic Architecture have done an in-depth report on the killing of Hind Rajab plus her relatives in the car and the two ambulance drivers who were sent to rescue her. Using architectural technology and reports from the ground to reconstruct what happened.


This was no accident. Heavy duty weapons from Israeli light tanks were used.

The Israeli Jew Eyal Weizman book on the occupation I have posted about before I cant recommend highly enough


He set up Forensic Architecture as an architectural practise that studied killings like these. Not just in Israel. It uses open source techniques that others can use.

His book says Zionism is embedded in the architecture of the State of Israel and the territories it occupies. Architecture is not a neutral practise. As his book shows.

As is common with Israelis who do not support Zionism he no longer lives there.

Having read the history of Zionism nothing State of Israel does surprises me.
 
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Boris Sprinkler

Forensic Architecture have done an in-depth report on the killing of Hind Rajab plus her relatives in the car and the two ambulance drivers who were sent to rescue her. Using architectural technology and reports from the ground to reconstruct what happened.


This was no accident. Heavy duty weapons from Israeli light tanks were used.

The Israeli Jew Eyal Weizman book on the occupation I have posted about before I cant recommend highly enough


He set up Forensic Architecture as an architectural practise that studied killings like these. Not just in Israel. It uses open source techniques that others can use.

His book says Zionism is embedded in the architecture of the State of Israel and the territories it occupies. Architecture is not a neutral practise. As his book shows.

As is common with Israelis who do not support Zionism he no longer lives there.

Having read the history of Zionism nothing State of Israel does surprises me.
wait a few days and you'll find them managing another new low
 

Good article on seats lost over Starmer / Labour party position on Gaza.

Heard one new Labour MP this morning dismissing the lost votes over Gaza as "easy to manage" now Labour are in charge.

There's been a lot of anger out there over in Muslim community/ those who are middle east background. As well as a lot of decent Labour party voters.

The anger is about Labour leadership position on Israel. It's come to prominence with how Israel state has flattened Gaza and killed civilians in large numbers. What it's shown is that leadership are pro Israel and have no real interest in Palestinians.

I've seen this on demos.

Leadership have made a few of the right noises recently. But nothing of substance.

Replies from my LD and green candidates talked of suspending arms sales and calling for genuine ceasefire.

My Labour candidate could only list the questions she'd asked about arms sales and wasn't that forthcoming on definitive positions.

I think the Labour think they can waffle their way out of this.
 
My Labour candidate could only list the questions she'd asked about arms sales and wasn't that forthcoming on definitive positions.

I think the Labour think they can waffle their way out of this.

I honestly don't think they will be that bothered given the size of their majority. It's thought they lost four seats due to their position on Gaza. No point doing anything "controversial" like suspending arms sales to Israel unless they really have to.
 
I honestly don't think they will be that bothered given the size of their majority. It's thought they lost four seats due to their position on Gaza. No point doing anything "controversial" like suspending arms sales to Israel unless they really have to.

I know.

What gets me is that the replies I got from Green and LD candidates were more principled than the reply I got from my Labour MP Helen Hayes. Who is of the I've been to West Bank and its so awful but I cant possibly say if I support stopping arms. And I support a ceasefire but cant vote for one. This is typical Labour party. Agree with you but say it all so difficult. Thing about Labour party foreign policy on Israel/ Palestine is that they have no excuse. It wont cost them any money and in 2024 we do not have an Empire. So no strategic needs in middle east any more.. Its not like UK needs link to India any more.

IMO having Israel as an ally makes no real politic sense. We as in UK get nothing out of this supposed relationship. So imo cast Israel state loose to its own devices. And support South Africa in its case against Israel.
 

Article on well Palestinian film maker who has produced doc containing short films by people in Gaza.

More info on the different short films here:


I'd like to see this. Quite an achievement to put this together.

It was refused showing in Cannes. As Cannes said they did not want this year to be political. Mealy mouthed way to stop it being shown. Despite Zelensky being invited to speak previous year at Cannes.

So he set up a tent outside Cannes and showed it.

In his words:

The war did not start on October 7; the war has been going for 76 years, and culture and art carry that story. Cinema is a visual and audio tool that preserves memory.”
 
I know.

What gets me is that the replies I got from Green and LD candidates were more principled than the reply I got from my Labour MP Helen Hayes. Who is of the I've been to West Bank and its so awful but I cant possibly say if I support stopping arms. And I support a ceasefire but cant vote for one. This is typical Labour party. Agree with you but say it all so difficult. Thing about Labour party foreign policy on Israel/ Palestine is that they have no excuse. It wont cost them any money and in 2024 we do not have an Empire. So no strategic needs in middle east any more.. Its not like UK needs link to India any more.

IMO having Israel as an ally makes no real politic sense. We as in UK get nothing out of this supposed relationship. So imo cast Israel state loose to its own devices. And support South Africa in its case against Israel.
I sent a link to a yougov poll to request the Government condemn the Israeli war crimes to all members of my local council...not one of them even replied to confirm receipt of my mail... cowardly cunts every one
 
Oh as for having Israel as an ally not making sense, well there there is that thing about keeping in Merrika's good books and we've held many sickening positions for at least partly that reason
 

Article on the effect of Gaza on the election.

Jewish vote has gone up and Muslim vote decreased.

Though what the article does not do is look at overall Labour voters views on Palestine/ Israel.

As I've seen on demos the present leadership have angered Muslim voters.

Article traces back this to Miliband years. I do remember him getting stick for criticising Israel actions in Gaza. So this was before Corbyn.

Langleben - was in JLM and now in Progress - argues that then it was not anti Semitic. Though it became anti Semitic. Which stretches my credulity.

He, and other Muslims, felt persuaded to come back to the party in 2014 when the then-leader Ed Miliband condemned the scale of an Israeli operation in Gaza and the hundreds of civilian deaths.
Once again, at the same moment, Mr Langleben was seeing things very differently on the doorsteps of Jewish voters.
Even though Mr Miliband was himself Jewish, it was a time when polls were showing a rapid decline in Jewish support for Labour, particularly when the party’s 2015 manifesto talked about a parliamentary vote to recognise a Palestinian state.
“There were sometimes quite horrible conversations with Jewish voters who really cared about the issue of Israel,” says Mr Langleben.
“People in 2015 were accusing the Labour Party of antisemitism, but I think it fundamentally misread what antisemitism is. Then, it was a primarily about a foreign policy issue, Israel.

What I do have problem with is that now both sides accuse the other. One says the party is Islamophobic and the other sees anti semitism as the issue. Its depressing that the debate gets to be about who is more discriminated against.

Both relate to the parties shifting position on Gaza / Palestine.

I do not think the gap is that bridgeable.
 
More on the context

Matthew Hughes , whose book on Palestine revolt I've posted about, has this lecture on the law and imperial policing/ counterinsurgency,



In it he looks at the way British used law. He argues that the putting down of revolts was not down by wholesale violent excess. But was justified and organised through legal methods. He quotes from army manuals and handbooks that set out regulations for suppression of a revolt.

These manuals were also produced in pocket form so officers could carry them when out on active duty.

They gave legality to actions that army took. Written in such a way as to give commanders on the ground leeway. So collective punishment for example was legal.

In theory army personal when in policing operation like this were also subject to civil law. In practise it was almost impossible for Palestinians to take legal action.

The system of emergency regulations carried over into Israel state when it was founded. Used to keep Palestinians in check.

Whether these were moral uses of force is not the question. Its that they gave a legal basis.

This he argues is for the following reasons:

It meant this was organised use of violence. Pressure could be applied to populations at varying levels. Depending on their cooperation or opposition to authorities. More efficient use of violence for an aim. Which was pacification.

A legal framework gave officials and soldiers a justification for use of violent methods. Here is discussion of how to get ordinary people to use extreme measures. Mentions Hannah Arendt study of Himmler. Following orders that were "legal" made the level of violence seem allowed and normal.

He discusses how to research the violence used. Its not easy and in history of British Empire there is debate on amount of violence used in comparisons to other Empires.

A problem is that the brunt of the violence was directed at ordinary poor Palestinian villagers. Who do not leave records. Most critical records are those left by British missionaries. It takes a lot of digging into archives to find enough evidence.

As said above apart from the memory of this revolt that lives on in Palestine the Israel state suppression of Palestinians uses British methods they inherited when they took over.

Though arguably the flattening of Gaza as a collective punishment goes beyond anything the British would have done.

Hughes points out that in British Empire the most brutal were the settlers. As in Kenya British settlers acting as police did the worst things. They, unlike the British conscript army were defending their homes and way of life.

The same goes for Zionists. British Imperial policy was to pacify colonial population of Palestine. Not remove it and take their land.

Hughes mention this article he helped to advise as an historian

Meanwhile, Mr al-Masri seeks to argue that the ensuing conflict left the Palestinians entirely vulnerable, as the newly created State of Israel adopted some of the emergency powers left by the British.

"Britain should see the ways and means to compensate… [to] be brave and say: 'Sorry I did this'," he says.
 
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Genocide



It could be a lot higher, that's the conservative estimate


Very back of the envelope unfortunately. They take the Gaza Ministry of Health figure, add 10,000 (total guess I think) for those buried under the rubble and multiply by four as a guesstimate for the number indirectly killed by the war, that's it. It's not unreasonable and I think it's a good working assumption that Gaza has been literally decimated ie. 1 in 10 killed. Quite possibly worse.
 
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