Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

nino_savatte said:
Interesting article from Adam Shatz for LRB.
www.lrb.co.uk

Adam Shatz · Israel’s Descent

Eight months after 7 October, Palestine remains in the grip, and at the mercy, of a furious, vengeful Jewish state, ever...
www.lrb.co.uk www.lrb.co.uk
Click to expand...

After the beginning which is summary of recent events it gets going to be fascinating wide ranging discussion of history/ present day and future of the conflict.

Points out there was an early ( minority) view within Zionism that warned against what was then called population transfers. What the writer of article refers to as cultural Zionism rather than the mainstream Zionism of David Ben Gurion (Labour Zionism) or the right wing Zionism ( Revisionist who are major influence on present day Israel). Both Labour Zionism and Revisionist Zionism saw removal of Palestinians necessary.

Cultural Zionism, now a historical lost Zionism, wanted a bi national future for example.

For David Ben Gurion a new Israeli Jewish identity couldn't be built if influenced by Arab culture.

Some fascinating history from new book on US. In US some Jews were critical of Israel in 1950s. Not against the state but saying that Palestinians in camps should be allowed to be returned.

These voices were gradually hounded out. Leaving in later years a support Israel whatever line.

His article says for younger US Jews this is becoming untenable. What one author he quotes as the schizophrenic position Jewish people are meant to take. Supporting liberal values at home but also supporting a right wing Jewish Suprematist state of Israel .

It's not something that younger Jewish people can do now. ( See this here with increasingly large Jewish bloc on demos)

For the future he is pessimistic.

In US the older generation of Israel supporters like Biden are in power.

The writer of article wonders if Palestinians can hold on until a new younger generation of progressive people wield power USA.

There's more in article. But I'd recommend this as a good read.

As it's LRB it's refering to recent books.
 


Watched this last night. Ilan Pappe , the Israeli historian , has a new book out on the Israeli lobby. Got to give it to him as that rare breed , an Anti Zionist Jewish Israeli , to write a book on the Israeli lobby, And its a massive tome.

Interesting bit at beginning on how a voice like his is silenced in Israel. As he say its a democracy with free speech. That does not extend to being an academic working in education and refusing to be a Zionist.

This led to him losing his job and ending up here as Professor of History at Exeter.

So Israel is democracy with free speech with limits.

I did find the interview somewhat frustrating.

Lobbying is perfectly normal part of democracy. I would like to have learnt more why Israel lobby has such influence.

After all politician could tell Israel lobby to go stuff themselves.

Ilan Pappe did say Israel lobby has worked more recently by smearing anyone who opposes Zionism as an Anti Semite.

This in his opinion shows the weakness of present day Zionism. As there is no positive reasons to support Israel. So in his words weaponising anti semitism is a sign of weakness of Zionism not a strength. It's a negative way to support Zionist state.

Not that that helps those targeted by that. But I thought it was interesting point for him to make.

Personally Ilan Pappe has found Exeter University has always supported him and he does not have a lot of problems in this country.

Recently he did have problem in USA,

I did wonder why he is left alone here. He was sanguine about the criticism of people like him who oppose a Zionist state. Saying as an historian who has studied this history he can deal with it.

Must say , whilst he comes across as mild mannered , he has utter contempt for Zionism as a political project.

At one point he says the difference between right wing Zionists who run country now and the liberal peace camp Zionists isn't much difference for Palestinians. Says some of his Palestinian friends prefer the right as they are quite open about what they want, Liberal Zionists want to be a but nicer to Palestinians but still build settlements on West Bank. They would give Palestinians a bit of self government in what Pappe calls like South Africa Bantustans of Apartheid era.

So neither Liberal or right wing Zionism is the answer,
 
Last edited:
nino_savatte said:
Quite, there are between 4,000 and 8,000 Palestinian hostages in Israeli prisons (depending on the source). Many of those Palestinian hostages are children, too. About 310 are in "administrative detention". Those numbers dwarf the Israelis being held in Gaza by resistance groups.
Click to expand...
Nothing the Israelis do should surprise us as most people are unaware that state of Israel was founded by terrorists.
 
Gramsci said:


Watched this last night. Ilan Pappe , the Israeli historian , has a new book out on the Israeli lobby. Got to give it to him as that rare breed , an Anti Zionist Jewish Israeli , to write a book on the Israeli lobby, And its a massive tome.

Interesting bit at beginning on how a voice like his is silenced in Israel. As he say its a democracy with free speech. That does not extend to being an academic working in education and refusing to be a Zionist.

This led to him losing his job and ending up here as Professor of History at Exeter.

So Israel is democracy with free speech with limits.

I did find the interview somewhat frustrating.

Lobbying is perfectly normal part of democracy. I would like to have learnt more why Israel lobby has such influence.

After all politician could tell Israel lobby to go stuff themselves.

Ilan Pappe did say Israel lobby has worked more recently by smearing anyone who opposes Zionism as an Anti Semite.

This in his opinion shows the weakness of present day Zionism. As there is no positive reasons to support Israel. So in his words weaponising anti semitism is a sign of weakness of Zionism not a strength. It's a negative way to support Zionist state.

Not that that helps those targeted by that. But I thought it was interesting point for him to make.

Personally Ilan Pappe has found Exeter University has always supported him and he does not have a lot of problems in this country.

Recently he did have problem in USA,

I did wonder why he is left alone here. He was sanguine about the criticism of people like him who oppose a Zionist state. Saying as an historian who has studied this history he can deal with it.

Must say , whilst he comes across as mild mannered , he has utter contempt for Zionism as a political project.

At one point he says the difference between right wing Zionists who run country now and the liberal peace camp Zionists isn't much difference for Palestinians. Says some of his Palestinian friends prefer the right as they are quite open about what they want, Liberal Zionists want to be a but nicer to Palestinians but still build settlements on West Bank. They would give Palestinians a bit of self government in what Pappe calls like South Africa Bantustans of Apartheid era.

So neither Liberal or right wing Zionism is the answer,
Click to expand...

See also.
www.versobooks.com

Friends of Israel

Friends of Israel provides a forensically researched account of the activities of Israel's advocates in Britain, showing how they contribute to maintaining Israeli apartheid. The book traces the history and changing fortunes of key actors within the British Zionist movement in the context of the...
www.versobooks.com www.versobooks.com

Here's the blurb.
Is there such a thing as ‘the Israel lobby’, and how powerful is it?

Friends of Israel provides a forensically researched account of the activities of Israel's advocates in Britain, showing how they contribute to maintaining Israeli apartheid. The book traces the history and changing fortunes of key actors within the British Zionist movement in the context of the Israeli government's contemporary efforts to repress a rising tide of solidarity with Palestinians expressed through the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. Offering a nuanced and politically relevant account of pro-Israel actors' strategies, tactics, and varying levels of success in key arenas of society, it draws parallels with the similar anti-boycott campaign waged by supporters of the erstwhile apartheid regime in South Africa.

By demystifying the actors involved in the Zionist movement, the book provides an anti-racist analysis of the pro-Israel lobby which robustly rebuffs anti-Semitic conspiracies. Sensitively and accessibly written, it emphasises the complicity of British actors - both those in government and in civil society. Drawing on a range of sources including interviews with leading pro-Israel activists and Palestinian rights activists, documents obtained through Freedom of Information requests and archival material, Friends of Israel is a much-needed contribution to Israel/Palestine-related scholarship and a useful resource for the Palestine solidarity movement.
Click to expand...
I recommend this book.
 
Spymaster said:
Yes. It should stop.

Hamas caused this latest round of bloodshed though.
Click to expand...
Not really, no. The zionist campaign was not the only response in Netanyahu's arsenal but it was the one which achieved his own war aim - using the situation to stay in power.

A more imaginative leader might have taken the opportunity to fuck over hamas (and hezbollah, and iran) by whipping the ground from under their feet and saying, OK there's your Palestinian state on the wb and in gaza, I wish you joy of it. And let hamas and fatah scrap it out while bn gets the Nobel peace prize and if not the love of the zionist people then at least millions of dollars from publishers and for after-dinner speeches.
 
Immensely partisan phrasing, but the actual story here appears to be that Hamas and the IDF are both rushing to secure the paper reserves of banks in Gaza:

Bank heists reach $120m in Gaza as cash crunch hits

Armed gangs, including Hamas-backed groups, have plundered at least $120mn from banks in northern Gaza in just the past two months, according to UN estimates, as the war-ravaged strip suffers from a severe cash crunch.
Click to expand...
The enclave uses Israeli shekels, but Israel’s military has blocked the entry of fresh notes, forcing ordinary Palestinians to use faded Jordanian dinars and dwindling supplies of US dollars as shekel notes rip apart from wear and tear.

The Israeli military itself seized 200mn shekels, about $53mn, from another Bank of Palestine branch in Gaza “to prevent the money from reaching Hamas”, Ma’ariv, a Hebrew newspaper, reported in February. That cash remains with Israeli authorities, said an international diplomat briefed on the issue. The Israel Defense Forces did not respond to a request for comment on total amounts seized since the war began.
Click to expand...
(ie. what's actually been robbed is $173m, Israel doing so as part of its effort to squeeze the enclave financially and Hamas to keep itself solvent, with the latter doing a bit better at it).
 
Spymaster said:
Yes. It should stop.

Hamas caused this latest round of bloodshed though.
Click to expand...
Suspect this line of argument will go round in circles, but Israel had been massively expanding their settlements in the West Bank in the years leading up to this which was what October 7th was in part a response to. As part of this process of colonisation and ethnic cleansing 234 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank in 2023 before October 7th. I don't know how many were killed in Gaza.

So I don't know how you can say that Hamas started this round of violence. I can't find data on people killed in Gaza in 2023 before October 7th but looking at West Bank alone, the October 7th attacks killed 4.8 times the number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the year before that. Including Gaza I guess it would be more like 3-4 times.

Israel's response to October 7th has killed 37,000 people, not including excess deaths from famine, illness and disease caused by the blockade of Gaza and targeting of medical facilities and professionals. So at the bare minimum it is 32x those killed in October 7th.

I'm not sure why you can't see the bias inherent in viewing Israeli attacks as responses but Palestinian attacks as just out of the blue. The acceleration of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank under an extremist right wing Israeli government and normalisation of relations between Saudi and Israel raising the spectre of Palestinian cause being forgotten is clearly what led Hamas to plan something big (as well as Netanyahu moving troops away from Gaza to aid with colonisation of the West Bank providing the opportunity).

October 7th provided the justification to go deeper and harder with ethnically cleansing Gaza as well as the West Bank, but the decision of the right wing Israeli government to accelerate the process of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians predates October 7th and is at the root of the current round of violence.

Edit: It should also be obvious by now that permanently depopulating North Gaza to make room for settlements is the real motive behind Israeli violence, not freeing the hostages or retaliation for October 7th.
 
Last edited:
mojo pixy said:
To be fair, everywhere is. Even the USA with its first amendment.

Still, Ilan Pappe is an important historian and everyone with an interest in Israel or zionism should read Ten Myths, especially if they consider themselves to be any shade of zionist.
Click to expand...

Read that a while back. Worth another look.

He is best known for The Ethnic cleansing of Palestine

On the Nakba.

He was recently subject to two hour interrogation before being allowed into visit to USA

www.middleeasteye.net

Israeli anti-Zionist academic Ilan Pappe interrogated by US federal agents on Gaza views

Professor says he was subjected to two hour interrogation and questioned about his ties to Muslim groups
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net
 
www.cambridge.org

Britain's Pacification of Palestine

Cambridge Core - Military History - Britain's Pacification of Palestine
www.cambridge.org www.cambridge.org

Finished the main section of this military history of the Palestine revolt. As had been reading about British empire before events in Israel / Gaza this is going back to look at how British empire worked.

It's straight forward military history. Does not go into depth about the political factors. It's how Britain "pacified" Palestine /why they succeeded/ why revolt failed.

This is little known full on revolt. Only finally put down when Chamberlain Munich deal freed up troops to send to Palestine. Even then took six months to put down completely.

The long term result was that Palestinians were in no way ready or able to defend themselves against Zionists in 48.

The revolt was weakened by divisions in leadership/ local commanders not working in coordinated way/

Secondly due to divisions in leadership political strategy was not clear. And compromises decisions not able to be decided. IRA taken as one example. They took compromise of Free State. The Palestine leadership was so divided that British were able to work to undermine them

Matthew Hughes argument is that this pacification was not fully martial law not was it a dirty war like in Algeria. ( I can't judge on that as I don't know about Algeria)

The British army was used in conjunction with civil authority. Not always happily. It was measured violence. Excesses did happen but they were not the policy as such

Given that the regulations ( yes British were sticklers for regulations. Whole chapter in book on this) included interment without trial/ collective punishment like house demolition and fining.

Fining of villagers was effective. If British troops were shot at nearest village would be collectively punished. Houses chosen for demolition and or fines.

Fines could be devastating. These were poor farmers. If had no money then crops / cattle were taken

It was system of carrot and stick. Cooperative villages had less fines and searches.

It was grinding people down who might support rebels.

These things were allowed under Emergency regulations. To my suprise this kind of thing was standard British imperial behaviour.

The British emergency regulations live on in way Israel controls West Bank.

Due to lack of troops Zionist were used as police and armed . British army were equivocal about this.

Orde Wingate , famous in Israel and also in WW2, set up Special Night Squads of Jews and regular British troops. His harsh methods meant he got sent home after six months. As book states measured violence was the norm and Wingate was a maverick. Whose methods some in army thought counterproductive.

Still Zionists played a role. Particularly in intelligence.

And in military training. Wingates Special Night Squads had later leaders of Israel like Ariel Sharon

Unit 101 , the Israel army unit , that took part in border wars after 48 was clearly modelled on Wingates Special Night Squads. So Wingates long term influence was out of proportion to his involvement.

Given Matthew Hughes emphasis that this pacification was within the bounds of what was acceptable to British at that time seems to me he also catalogues a lot of oppression and violence that underpinned British imperial rule.

Chatting to friend and some of these methods were used in Ireland.

The book is highly detailed calm look from a military point of view or how to conduct the ending of a revolt.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Protag
Israel-Iran conflicts - news and discussion
6 7 8 9 10
Replies
279
Views
15K
teqniq
teqniq
Pickman's model
Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers
12 13 14 15 16
Replies
467
Views
20K
yield
Y
WhyLikeThis
Mpox - news and discussion
9 10 11 12 13
Replies
387
Views
22K
Cerv
C
teqniq
Worldwide protest/actions concerning events in Gaza/Palestine/Israel
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
173
Views
11K
zahir
Z
littlebabyjesus
Israel's shoddy Gaza propaganda
2 3 4
Replies
116
Views
8K
frogwoman
frogwoman
Back
Top Bottom