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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Those under administrative detention has increased from figures that nino_savatte posted up.

Administrative detention is detention without trial. For up to six months. Which a Judge can renew indefinitely. Evidence to justify it is usually withheld from those detained on so called security grounds.

Its a way of locking people up who state of Israel thinks are troublemakers. But not actually guilty of any proven crime.

Its one of the supposed legal ways the democratic state of Israel treats people.

Counts imo as equivalent to hostage taking.


British used something similar in the Arab revolt in Palestine in the 30s

Useful technique to ram home to colonial population your better off keeping your nose clean and not involving yourself in any political activity. At very least it disrupts peoples lives. For a colonial population its something that can hang over them as they go about their lives.
 
Gramsci said:


Watched this long interview with head of the Palestine National Initiative Mustafa Barghouti

Set up as alternative to Hamas and Fatah. Its secular group.

He calls for a One State Solution

Interesting as his life has covered lot of history of Palestine / Israel. Grew up on West Bank and was 13 when Israel occupied West Bank. His whole life changed with living under Israeli military rule. Got a scholarship to study medicine in USSR. Spent seven years in USSR. Which he liked. USSR took in a lot of students from other countries. He had to stay as if he went back to visit the petty nature of Israel military rule would have likely meant being stopped to return to USSR to finish studies.

On return he found that Israel had been not funding health services. As occupying power it was responsible. The gap between funding Israelis health and those of the West Bank was very big.

He decided to set up small teams of people to be trained to go out and treat people in West Bank. When the first Intifada started his medical teams worked to support those injured by IDF

His view of the first Intifada was positive. It was genuinely grass roots community organised revolt against occupation. And made occupation so difficult for Israel it was forced to have peace talks.

The main Palestinian leadership had been in exile during Intifada and a new generation of leaders came up.

He took part in talks as a representative of the grass roots. A sticking point was agreement to end settlement building.

What he and other grass roots people realised was that the Israelis had opened back channel talks with the exiled leadership to overcome this,

He opposed the agreement reached and told Arafat so. Said it was a trap.

He and others like Edward Said were correct on this.

PNI was set up as secular alternative to Hamas and alternative to the now corrupt Fatah.

He tries to get a united leadership of all the factions. Looks like he is seen as an honest broker by both sides.

On present day he says its up to Palestinians who they want to represent them. That would include Hamas.

PNI does not have an armed wing and works non violently. He does not oppose resistance to Israel.

On Gaza. This is worse than Nakba. Israel wants to clear Gaza of Palestinians.

So he is anti Zionist but not against existing Jewish Israeli population living in a future Palestine.

He came across as thinking the Two State solution died. The Oslo talks ended up as a trap for Palestinian movement.
Click to expand...

Why would the Israelies go for a one state solution ? Give up a state for vague promises of peace and security? No one's that dumb.
 
exalt yourselves with all of that military kit, it is like a pilgrimage of another kind, to find out oh, that's why you don't do that
 
dylanredefined said:
Why would the Israelies go for a one state solution ? Give up a state for vague promises of peace and security? No one's that dumb.
Click to expand...

If you think that then why would they go for two state solution?

After all that means vacating West Bank .Stopping settlement building and removing settlers.

As long as Israel gets military assistance/ diplomatic support at UN by Western countries like US and UK then Israel I suppose would be "dumb" to take any solution.

Until Hamas attack Israel thought it had it all stitched up. Increasing gradual take over of West Bank and enough military hardware to keep Palestinians in check.

Part of solution is ending all military aid and selling of weapons to Israel.
 
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Israel exports weapons they build their own drones and air defence weapons none of their neighbours have any effective military industry Iran is the wish of international arms industry
 
I watched this on Al Jazeera.



What I take from this is that the Palestinians will be stitched up again. This is deal cooked up between US and Israel. The Marwan Bishara ( Al Jazeera political commenter) says Biden want a deal. Its that Israel government are still prevaricating . Pressuring the US to publicly try to put onus on Hamas.

Bishari reckons Netanyahu and right in Israel would like to hang on until Trump gets back in. Biden would not be against new elections and Gantz being PM.

Either way it comes across as Palestinians going to lose out.

For Biden its getting the old "peace process" back on track. No Hamas. Working with Arab partners. Normalisation back on track. Blinken says he has been in talks with potential Arab partners. Even Blinken saying those "forced out of north Gaza" being allowed back. Without saying this was IDF and Israeli government who did this, That all along been a narrative. Things happen but do not blame Israel directly.

Front what I can gather Hamas are not turning down deal. Just saying more talks necessary on details.

Blinken kept on talking about the future. It was all Israel security that and Israel security this, Nothing on say Palestinian security. Take West Bank. No involvement with attack on Israel yet more settlement building agreed and Zionist settlers attacking Palestinians. Nothing Blinken said about real two state solution. That I notice was never mentioned as part of future.

I'm thinking this is totally cynical exercise in power political "diplomacy"

As Bishari says this deal shows the balance of power in Geo politics. With US calling the shots. That is how I read what Bishari says

 
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politicians whitewashing ages long brutal oppression and genocide with impudent faces, wanna be calling for the battering rams with shouting, must be wondering if its not getting a bit late

does anybody know if they are done screwing on the iron fist, and have started kicking all quarters out of jerusalem yet?
 
James Elder was interviewed on BBC World Service today. The BBC let him talk for a while, and he spoke extremely eloquently about what is going on and the immediate plight faced by hundreds of thousands of children. He did well to talk so well given how angry he clearly was.

The BBC is engaging in extraordinary doublethink over this issue now. Having allowed Elder to speak and asked questions to confirm that he was sure about what he was saying, which were met with a detailed response saying exactly what he had witnessed, they then quoted the Israeli authorities' non-comment that they were looking into it, and the very next piece (for balance, presumably :rolleyes:) was with an Israeli academic discussing the threat to lsrael in Lebanon and acting effectively as a spokesperson for the Israeli government POV.

Hang on, these are the people committing the atrocities you have just heard documented right now, today, and you're talking to them as if they were reasonable people with reasonable things to say.
 
The BBC report about James Elder

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel Gaza war: UN aid convoy 'denied entry to north'

Unicef spokesman James Elder says severely malnourished children will not get the supplies they need.
www.bbc.co.uk

I'm having to ration what I view about Gaza as it does my head in.

The bureaucratic bollocks the Zionist state comes out with to justify stopping trucks coming with aid.

This is how Zionism works in practise. Set up supposed legal type bureaucracy to allow aid in. That in reality stops a lot of aid in. Leading to as article says severe malnutrition and ongoing demoralisation of people.

Its what Ilan Pappe called in his history of occupation of West Bank the construction of the "bureaucracy of evil".

Seemingly rational and legal. But not.

Also James Elder witnessed civilians trying to get food by fishing and being shot. His staff offered to aid wounded and were not allowed by IDF.

What can I say?

This is Zionism and how it works to subjugate those whose land they want, Those who remain will do so under Israeli Zionist surveillance. Of course to protect Israel security. This is how its worked for decades. I would have thought our leaders in the west would have worked this out

Israel has no and never did have in reality any important geo political importance / strategic importance for western power like UK imo. Supporting Israel with Balfour declaration and now makes imo no foreign policy sense. Better to withdraw support. Support South Africa case and let Israel do its own thing without western support from UK.

I think on foreign policy grounds removing support from Israel will do this country standing with the global south no end of good.
 
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Gramsci said:
The BBC report about James Elder

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel Gaza war: UN aid convoy 'denied entry to north'

Unicef spokesman James Elder says severely malnourished children will not get the supplies they need.
www.bbc.co.uk

I'm having to ration what I view about Gaza as it does my head in.

The bureaucratic bollocks the Zionist state comes out with to justify stopping trucks coming with aid.

This is how Zionism works in practise. Set up supposed legal type bureaucracy to allow aid in. That in reality stops a lot of aid in. Leading to as article says severe malnutrition and ongoing demoralisation of people.

Its what Ilan Pappe called in his history of occupation of West Bank the construction of the "bureaucracy of evil".

Seemingly rational and legal. But not.

Also James Elder witnessed civilians trying to get food by fishing and being shot. His staff offered to aid wounded and were not allowed by IDF.

What can I say?

This is Zionism and how it works to subjugate those whose land they want, Those who remain will do so under Israeli Zionist surveillance. Of course to protect Israel security. This is how its worked for decades. I would have thought our leaders in the west would have worked this out

Israel has no and never did have in reality any important geo political importance / strategic importance for western power like UK imo. Supporting Israel with Balfour declaration and now makes imo no foreign policy sense. Better to withdraw support. Support South Africa case and let Israel do its own thing without western support from UK.

I think on foreign policy grounds removing support from Israel will do this country standing with the global south no end of good.
Click to expand...

That many people thought and said that was probably just the results of yet another myth put about as a reason why people should support it - the evangelicals get the promise of His return, the socialists get the legends of the kibbutzim, the diaspora communities get the promise of a safe haven and the "realists" get the idea that they have an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east. All of these myths were nonsense.
 
Flavour said:
This is going to be ugly. The IDF are going to react with overwhelming force and civilian casualties in Gaza will be in the hundreds, if not thousands.
Click to expand...
The IDF are going to do many war crimes. Bomb unarmed women and children in tents, destroy churches and universities, and even kill the hostages.
 
Spymaster said:
What would be even better is if Hamas hadn’t taken civilian hostages in the first place.

Apparently, 86 civilians killed in the rescue operation. Absolutely murdered by Hamas.
Click to expand...
Yes Spy, I'd say it was a war crime to kill and kidnap the Israeli civilians, and that the people responsible should be tried for it. I know you think we lefties are disgusting for our views on the Palestine/Israel conflict. With the great ongoing imbalance in death toll, I'd respectfully disagree.

The problem to me seems to be the way the war is phrased in our newspapers. Pretty well every attack by Israel is reported as a 'response' to a Palestinian attack, whereas actually pretty well every attack by the Palestinians is a response to an Israeli attack - usually killing young boys who were 'throwing stones'.

So, any thoughts on this which was posted in reply to yours?


www.lrb.co.uk

Adam Shatz · Israel’s Descent

Eight months after 7 October, Palestine remains in the grip, and at the mercy, of a furious, vengeful Jewish state, ever...
www.lrb.co.uk www.lrb.co.uk

If the Israelis were justified in taking their revenge for the 86 civilians by killing 36,000 Palestinians and counting, would you say that Hamas was justified for the invasion and mass slaughter by Israel since 1948. Surely these are also war crimes and the perpetrators should be tried for that, too?

Since 2005 alone Israel has killed nearly 4,000 Palestinians, for example.

The disparity has widened dramatically over time. Since January 2005, when the conflict began to change dramatically, it has killed 4,006 people, of whom 168 have been Israeli and 3,838 Palestinian. That means that, since January 2005, only four percent of those killed have been Israeli, and 96 percent Palestinian. Since January 2005, in other words, the conflict has killed 23 Palestinians for every one Israeli it claims.
Click to expand...
www.vox.com

This chart shows every person killed in the Israel-Palestine conflict since 2000

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...
www.vox.com www.vox.com
 
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