Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers

[LakieLady]

Netanyahu is doing something right. His and his parties popularity has increased with attack on Lebanon

New Poll - Israel’s Attack on Lebanon Boosts Netanyahu’s Likud Party Popularity

Israel's attack on Lebanon has boosted the popularity of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, a new poll found.

www.palestinechronicle.com

I do feel Netanyahu is underestimated. Also Likud his party still gets a lot of support.

I sometimes wonder if part of Netanyahu's willingness to bomb neighbouring states is because he knows he needs the support of the hawks among the electorate in order for Likud to remain in power.

 

[Gramsci]

This can't just be reduced to some kind of realpolitik where proxies are chessboard pieces in a game of competing powers

The underlying reason for the ongoing conflict is Israel dispossession of Palestinians of their land.

And also Palestinians refusal to accept their lot.

Even if cynical power politics is in play regime's across middle east have to take in account the feelings of those they rule when it comes to Palestine. At least in part.

Pre Hamas attack the "normalisation" process looked like it was going to succeed. The losers would be the Palestinian people.

Effectively sidelined whilst Israel kept Gaza as open prison and incrementally ethnically cleansed Palestine in West Bank.

 

[Gramsci]

UN rapporteurs view of pager attack.

Notice it's a collective statement. The UN rapporteur for the Occupied Territories has been getting a lot of stick recently for being critical of Israel. So good to see other rapporteurs back her up.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

Such attacks require prompt, independent investigation to establish the truth and enable accountability for the crime of murder

And as I've posted before imo part of pager attack was to terrorise the population. Rapporteurs say this,

It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

 

[Gramsci]

This analyst was on radio 4 just now. Checked him out and is credible academic.



Here he argues that Netanyahu hasn't succeeded in total victory in Gaza. So now turned to Lebanon.

US and western allies from the start urged him not to do this. He's ploughed ahead anyway.

This analyst thinks Netanyahu wants a forever war. The assassination of head of Hezbollah when US and other western allies were trying to get a truce shows this in Gerges opinion.

So , need to give this another look, this analyst doesn't think this is rational action in sense of long term aims. That of getting Israel citizens back living in north of Israel.

Btw his book looks interesting.

What Really Went Wrong - Yale University Press London

An ambitious revisionist history of the modern Middle East What Really Went Wrong offers a fresh and incisive assessment of American foreign policy&rsq...

yalebooks.co.uk

Not sure if this is right thread for this post

 

[ska invita]

I'm not convinced by the "US diplomacy humiliated" line.... The US play good cop and achieve their own objectives as carried out by Israel and are seen as having tried their best. This is far from their best, it's a token minimum in fact

 

[Favelado]

A one-time pad and a shortwave radio still uncrackable so I'd always opt for that if i was going for retro-tech comms.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

This can't just be reduced to some kind of realpolitik where proxies are chessboard pieces in a game of competing powers

The underlying reason for the ongoing conflict is Israel dispossession of Palestinians of their land.

And also Palestinians refusal to accept their lot.

Even if cynical power politics is in play regime's across middle east have to take in account the feelings of those they rule when it comes to Palestine. At least in part.

Pre Hamas attack the "normalisation" process looked like it was going to succeed. The losers would be the Palestinian people.

Effectively sidelined whilst Israel kept Gaza as open prison and incrementally ethnically cleansed Palestine in West Bank.

It's clear that a significant and influential number of Israelis, ie the settler communities and the more extreme politicians, won't be satisfied until all of the occupied Palestinian territories are subsumed into Israel. And they don't really care about the human cost, among the Palestinians or their Israeli compatriots.

 

[Gramsci]

I was looking up proscribed groups - Hamas and Hezbollah military wings are by UK government.

Proscribed terrorist groups or organisations

www.gov.uk

The definition UK government uses could be applied to Israel with its actions over last year came up I'm my search

What is meant by ‘terrorism’ in the proscription context?
“Terrorism” as defined in the act, means the use or threat of action which: involves serious violence against a person; involves serious damage to property; endangers a person’s life (other than that of the person committing the act); creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or section of the public or is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.

The use or threat of such action must be designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and must be undertaken for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.

Serious damage to property ( Gaza destruction of housing / educational establishments and other infrastructure)

Endangers persons life other than the person committing act. ( On numerous occasions in Gaza / West Bank and now Lebanon)

Serious risk to health and safety of Public ( destruction of hospital equipment in Gaza and much more)

Disrupting electronic equipment ( pager attack)

According to our UK government definition Israel has a case to answer here

Use or threat of action to influence or intimidate ( IDF tactic the Dahiya Doctrine. Threaten to bomb Lebanon I've already posted about )

Israel warns can send Lebanon ‘back to Stone Age’ as UN seeks de-escalation

Gallant says Israel can inflict ‘massive damage’ as UN humanitarian chief says war would be ‘potentially apocalyptic’.

www.aljazeera.com

My reading of the government definition and this counts as terrorism

 

[PTK]

I was looking up proscribed groups - Hamas and Hezbollah military wings are by UK government.

Proscribed terrorist groups or organisations

www.gov.uk

The definition UK government uses could be applied to Israel with its actions over last year came up I'm my search





Serious damage to property ( Gaza destruction of housing / educational establishments and other infrastructure)

Endangers persons life other than the person committing act. ( On numerous occasions in Gaza / West Bank and now Lebanon)

Serious risk to health and safety of Public ( destruction of hospital equipment in Gaza and much more)

Disrupting electronic equipment ( pager attack)

According to our UK government definition Israel has a case to answer here

Use or threat of action to influence or intimidate ( IDF tactic the Dahiya Doctrine. Threaten to bomb Lebanon I've already posted about )

Israel warns can send Lebanon ‘back to Stone Age’ as UN seeks de-escalation

Gallant says Israel can inflict ‘massive damage’ as UN humanitarian chief says war would be ‘potentially apocalyptic’.

www.aljazeera.com

My reading of the government definition and this counts as terrorism

However, it refers to "organisations" and not "states". A state has a licence to kill.

 

[Gramsci]

However, it refers to "organisations" and not "states". A state has a licence to kill.

I know. Just showing that the same definition could be applied to Israel government in its actions over last year.

I would have thought the politicians and their parties who support them in present Israeli government could come under the same definitions of terrorism as the armed wings of Hamas and Hezbollah

Not having a go at you here btw

 

[Gramsci]

There are some hardline Zionist parties in the present Israeli government who could imo due to actions and what they have been saying be proscribed.

I now it sounds daft.

But might make some of the cheerleaders in this country for Israel think twice about what they say.

 

[Gramsci]

I know know its not going to happen. Its looking at definition and applying it in way that , of course , one isn't supposed to . As that's not how the system works.

 

[PTK]

I know. Just showing that the same definition could be applied to Israel government in its actions over last year.

I would have thought the politicians and their parties who support them in present Israeli government could come under the same definitions of terrorism as the armed wings of Hamas and Hezbollah

Well, no, because the government is the civilian wing of the State of Israel. To be equivalent, it would have to be the IDF.
Are the civilian wings of Hamas and Hezbollah not defined as "terrorist" by the UK?

 

[Gramsci]

Well, no, because the government is the civilian wing of the State of Israel. To be equivalent, it would have to be the IDF.
Are the civilian wings of Hamas and Hezbollah not defined as "terrorist" by the UK?

As far as I can gather all of Hamas and Hezbollah is proscribed. Any support shown at demos for them is heavily policed.

I'm saying this official government definition could be applied to Israel state at this time.

TBF UK does ban some of the settlers.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-bans-entry-those-responsible-settler-violence-against-palestinians-2023-12-14/

But reading this definition and theoretically the definition of terrorism could be applied to present Israeli government.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are some hardline Zionist parties in the present Israeli government who could imo due to actions and what they have been saying be proscribed.

I now it sounds daft.

But might make some of the cheerleaders in this country for Israel think twice about what they say.

There are some hard-line people in the present UK govt who imo could be proscribed due to what they've said eg keir starmer with his comments about the zionists having the right to starve gaza

 

[Gramsci]

I'm not convinced by the "US diplomacy humiliated" line.... The US play good cop and achieve their own objectives as carried out by Israel and are seen as having tried their best. This is far from their best, it's a token minimum in fact

Fair comment.

On my post Professor Fawaz Gerges summarise his arguments here in short LSE video Six minutes about his recent book

He basically argues that the middle east had liberal secular politicians who were nationalist and US ( and UK) got rid of them for their own policy interest. The end result being where middle east is now.

There was an alternative future where liberal nationalist politics grew roots and furthered a progressive development of the middle east.

Based on self determination. This links to Palestinians having right to self determination.

(Adding to this the British and French were no better in Mandate period in my opinion from reading A Line in the Sand.)

Gerges is putting argument that Western intervention has made things worse. Pretty well agree with this.

 

[Gramsci]

There are some hard-line people in the present UK govt who imo could be proscribed due to what they've said eg keir starmer with his comments about the zionists having the right to starve gaza

Yes.

This was said by someone trained in law. Who had the knowledge to know what he said was out of order.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Sounds like Netanyahu's now threatening the Ayatollah of Iran.