Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers

[kebabking]

What if the evil the Nazi regime and its leader represented was so extreme that it becomes a special case, and cannot therefore be used as a basis for any analogies used to judge the morality of subsequent acts of violence, terror or war?

Ok, pick another.

Belgian Congo? Khmer Rouge? Various Argentine dictators?

 

[tim]

Thanks yes thats what I meant.
I cant see the US getting involved...I see Israel as the US's proxy in this anyhow, no reason for them to get their hands obviously bloodied

Israel is a brutal regional power with agency of own. Its not a neocolonial proxy of a Great Power anymore than Iran is.

 

[_Russ_]

It's the use of the what about fallacy that already bestows such on those who deploy it

Oh no it doesnt

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh no it doesnt

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

 

[The39thStep]

What if the evil the Nazi regime and its leader represented was so extreme that it becomes a special case, and cannot therefore be used as a basis for any analogies used to judge the morality of subsequent acts of violence, terror or war?

Need to get back to the what if someone enters your house and takes your woman analogies

 

[Spymaster]

Need to get back to the what if someone enters your house and takes your woman analogies

Load of old whataboutery.

 

[teqniq]

Why Israel's pager attacks in Lebanon violated international law

In-depth: Israel detonated thousands of telecom devices rigged with explosives in Lebanon. Experts say the attacks were indiscriminate and illegal.

www.newarab.com

 

[Idris2002]

Need to get back to the what if someone enters your house and takes your woman analogies

Load of old whataboutery.

Can't step in the same river twice.

 

[Idris2002]

Ok, pick another.

Belgian Congo? Khmer Rouge? Various Argentine dictators?

Belgian Congo, didn't get much better when it was taken out of King Leopold's hands - KR supported by Reagan and Mrs T through the 80s - Cecil Parkinson: "Pinochet's government is just like ours". You sure about this? (nb I am drunk now).

 

[dylanredefined]

This episode may well have broken international law, not that Israel GAF. But you don't really think that it's possible to target a large number of individual enemy combatents in a built up area with zero risk to civilians. Or that the IDF have deliberately killed Lebanese civilians. That's daft.

Any Military attack has to pass 3 tests to be legal under international law
Military necessary. Hezbollah is an enemy of Israel carrying out attacks on Israel and planning further attacks.
Discriminatory Only devices issued by Hezbollah to its members were targeted.
Unesscary suffering. Possibly though you can only pack so much explosive into a pager.

 

[Gramsci]

The other test , as I've posted about, is the kind of weapon.

Under international law there is an argument that these count as booby traps. So not allowable.

 

[Gramsci]

On civilian casualties from what I've read it has to be proportionate.

Which is arguable. In Gaza looks like Israel has not been proportionate.

With pager attack it is arguable that Israel could not, due to nature of attack ,make assessment of who would be endangered by attack apart from the target

If attacking a target this is supposed to be done.

 

[Gramsci]

And targeting Hezbollah combatants is allowed. But not non military personnal

 

[Gramsci]

However international law and armed conflict is not fixed for ever in stone.

What is allowable changes over time with political pressure.

 

[Gramsci]

In this case Israel decision makers probably thought they could get away with an attack of this kind. Without to much condemnation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Any Military attack has to pass 3 tests to be legal under international law
Military necessary. Hezbollah is an enemy of Israel carrying out attacks on Israel and planning further attacks.
Discriminatory Only devices issued by Hezbollah to its members were targeted.
Unesscary suffering. Possibly though you can only pack so much explosive into a pager.

Isn't there something about proportionality too?

 

[Spymaster]

Why Israel's pager attacks in Lebanon violated international law

In-depth: Israel detonated thousands of telecom devices rigged with explosives in Lebanon. Experts say the attacks were indiscriminate and illegal.

www.newarab.com

Mr Longobardo has a couple of things wrong in that. However, that's immaterial.

Nobody is actually arguing that the pager attacks were legal, least of all Israel.

 

[dylanredefined]

Isn't there something about proportionality too?

Yes you are right. Haven't had the lesson for a couple of years now.
It just means you have to weigh up how much damage and dead civilians can be justified in achieving your aim.
Blowing up a village to get one gunman is obviously unacceptable. Killing a high value target hopefully has people with a moral compass thinking about the costs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes you are right. Haven't had the lesson for a couple of years now.
It just means you have to weigh up how much damage and dead civilians can be justified in achieving your aim.
Blowing up a village to get one gunman is obviously unacceptable. Killing a high value target hopefully has people with a moral compass thinking about the costs.

Instructors say you should always check a compass before taking it into the field. And you should probably do the same with a moral compass too

 

[Spymaster]

Instructors say you should always check a compass before taking it into the field.

Wasn't that Confucius?

 

[Gramsci]

I did think whether it's a high value target or a lower one under international law proportionality comes into play.

 

[Gramsci]

And seems an argument being put on this thread is that as Israel is faced with people who supposedly don't play by the rules it can ditch them itself.

I thought one of the things Israel says it that it's a western democracy defending itself from islamic extremists.

That it's defending western values. International law, human rights etc.

The logic is then that to defend western values a state can suspend them in times of war.

And use same methods.

That isn't how international law is supposed to work

 

[PTK]

The term “whataboutery” and its variants really should bestow an instant “loss of argument” on its user, as its only ever used by those who’ve just had their silliness exposed and can’t come up with anything better!

No, that is simply untrue.

 

[PTK]

What if someone who is very bad is assassinated, and in revenge that person's state/organisation kills many civilians in revenge? Would that assassination have been the wrong thing to do?

 

[Spymaster]

I thought one of the things Israel says it that it's a western democracy defending itself from islamic extremists.

That it's defending western values. International law, human rights etc.

Does Israel say that? Who is Israel in this context?

Certainly some commentators may say that as opinion, but then it's just that. Opinion. There'll be Arabs in Palestine claiming to be upholding Islamic values.

As far as I'm aware Israel the state say they're defending their people and their country. Not Values.

 

[Gramsci]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/thanking-us-netanyahu-says-military-aid-for-israel-defends-western-civilization/

Netanyahu says today’s vote “demonstrates strong bipartisan support for Israel and defends Western civilization. Thank you friends, thank you America!”

 

[Gramsci]

And President of Israel

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/international/4343274-israels-president-defends-ongoing-war-if-it-werent-for-us-europe-would-be-next/amp/

This war is a war that is not only between Israel and Hamas. It’s a war that is intended, really, truly, to save Western civilization, to save the values of Western civilization,” Herzog told MSNBC’s Ana Cabrera in an interview.

 

[Spymaster]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/thanking-us-netanyahu-says-military-aid-for-israel-defends-western-civilization/

Well these are soundbites, aren't they. Not stated Israeli policy. The kind of nonsense you say to someone who's just given you a load of bombs and guns, or to drum-up overseas support from the kind of folk who will go away and post in the comments section of The Telegraph.

Nobody seriously thinks that Israel has attacked Gaza and the West Bank to defend western values, any more than they believe Putin's latest adventure is about the denazification of Ukraine.

 

[Gramsci]

Kind of thought a President and Prime minister of a country making a public statement is representing the state position

 

[Pickman's model]

And President of Israel

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/international/4343274-israels-president-defends-ongoing-war-if-it-werent-for-us-europe-would-be-next/amp/

I'm reminded of what gandhi apparently said when asked when asked what he thought of western civilization