Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
No one except the president of Israel it seems
Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers
- Thread starter Pickman's model
- Start date
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
He doesn’t believe it either.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How did he convey this to you?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
The same way Putin conveyed that he's talking bollocks too.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Of course it has. It's the kind of rhetoric that's likely been around since wars began.
Just on the pager attacks and the question of discrimination...
This question is a legal question of whether the attacks could distinguish between combatants and civilians not whether the attacks were targeted or whether the attacks were random.
To give an example Hamas rocket attacks are not guided and therefore cannot distinguish between combatants and civilians. The question of whether they have intended targets is moot. Similarly with Israeli flechettes (look them up if you feel so inclined, they're pretty grim) which were used in 2008/9.
So I suppose there is a question of to what extent an attack can effectively discriminate between civilians and combatants. You can probably take either side on this one. I'm fairly convinced these pager bombs couldn't in any meaningful respect. Collectively they're like a series of car bombs in my mind - fairly standard terrorist attacks.
Does any of the above matter much? No not really. I won't be arguing about it and I'm disappointed by the navel gazing it has inspired. Southern Lebanon is about to be laid waste to. Gaza has been destroyed and is now uninhabitable, it's population decimated. There may be a broader war bringing in America and Iran. How some of you find the energy to quibble about this particular matter is beyond me.
This question is a legal question of whether the attacks could distinguish between combatants and civilians not whether the attacks were targeted or whether the attacks were random.
To give an example Hamas rocket attacks are not guided and therefore cannot distinguish between combatants and civilians. The question of whether they have intended targets is moot. Similarly with Israeli flechettes (look them up if you feel so inclined, they're pretty grim) which were used in 2008/9.
So I suppose there is a question of to what extent an attack can effectively discriminate between civilians and combatants. You can probably take either side on this one. I'm fairly convinced these pager bombs couldn't in any meaningful respect. Collectively they're like a series of car bombs in my mind - fairly standard terrorist attacks.
Does any of the above matter much? No not really. I won't be arguing about it and I'm disappointed by the navel gazing it has inspired. Southern Lebanon is about to be laid waste to. Gaza has been destroyed and is now uninhabitable, it's population decimated. There may be a broader war bringing in America and Iran. How some of you find the energy to quibble about this particular matter is beyond me.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I'm not quibbling.
This started because I , instead of just spouting off, looked up the legal stuff on this particular case. Which is relevant to this thread.
And was criticised for doing so.
If one looks at the Gaza thread it will be seen I've posted a lot about the laying to waste of Gaza.
Which I notice some posters going on here about the pager attack absented themselves from.
As the main Gaza thread has been considered by some as so appalling.
Not for "decent" people was one remark
Quibbling about international law isn't irrelevant. It's one of few ways those who support Palestinian rights have of taking critical stance towards Israel.
This started because I , instead of just spouting off, looked up the legal stuff on this particular case. Which is relevant to this thread.
And was criticised for doing so.
If one looks at the Gaza thread it will be seen I've posted a lot about the laying to waste of Gaza.
Which I notice some posters going on here about the pager attack absented themselves from.
As the main Gaza thread has been considered by some as so appalling.
Not for "decent" people was one remark
Quibbling about international law isn't irrelevant. It's one of few ways those who support Palestinian rights have of taking critical stance towards Israel.
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Yes but I don't think the indiscriminate (or not) nature of the attack is going to be resolved on here. In my mind it's in the category of "probable Israeli war crime" along with many others preceding it and inevitably following it.
And yes it's the both-siders who are in quibble mode not you Gramsci. It happened before with the Al Ahli hospital bombing.
And yes it's the both-siders who are in quibble mode not you Gramsci. It happened before with the Al Ahli hospital bombing.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Personally, I've stuck that thread back on ignore. It's just the usual left wing extremism that occasionally flirts heavily with anti-Semitism.
This one was set-up to discuss this specific action, which has kept it relatively sane.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
An auto-outreach cold email . They send thousands of these out a year.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Daily!
As an aside; I spent half an hour arguing with a marketing bot today, trying to confuse it.
They're getting really good, and even do indignance:
Then this when I suggested she wasn’t real:
Obviously, the link goes to an AI generated profile, but it's a massive heads-up.
It's got to the stage where even people who know what to look for, can't tell immediately if it's a bot.
Now I just ask for a phone call.
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dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
That is what proportionality means. Blowing up an orphanage to get one gunman bad.
Killing an army head quarters at the cost of one orphanage possibly acceptable.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
He also thought the jews should be happily offer themselves to the butchers knife.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
He said lots of shit. He recruited for the British army. But what was brought to mind was what he is supposed to have said when asked about western civilization. Great whataboutery effort tho.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
That's really not how it works.
For starters there aren't fixed quotas of dead kids a military planner can refer to
And it would be more than tasteless to set up some kind of table which is allowable.
X number of kids depending on rank of the target.
Proportionality like a lot of international agreements on armed conflict isn't fixed in stone.
Some might think killing a load of kids to destroy one army HQ isn't proportionate.
Israel isn't a rogue state and has army lawyers to advise it on bombing.
So far , except for the pagers, it's always attempted to justify it's killing of civilians.
In Lebanon the argument is that it's told people to move out the way
In Gaza says the same. Plus it argues like you are that high status Hamas target justifies heavy civilian collateral damage.
What I'm saying is that post WW2 there has been developed body of international law / agreements to regulate armed conflict.
In a hypothetical case of killing a load of kids to destroy high importance target a case might be brought that this was not proportionate which can be defended.
This of course takes time. And it's where proportionality is defined and re defined.
The case I have posted about as example is targeted assassinations/ extra judicial killing
Where Israel succeeded in changing customary international law so that this is accepted as part of armed conflict where policing and war overlap
TBF there are posters here who are into military stuff. Thought this would be obvious.
One of the articles I posted was by ex military person.
And IDF / Israel put what Noura Erakat in her book on Israel/ Palestine a lot of Legal Work into justifying their actions.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Apparently, whilst Netanyahu was speaking at the UN, the IDF have tried to assassinate Nasrallah. According to Lebanese government sources four to six residential buildings were demolished, many feared trapped under the rubble so the current casualty figures of two dead and seventy injured may well increase considerably.
www.middleeasteye.net
www.theguardian.com
Not sure there has ever been a greater series of gestures of absolute contempt issued in diplomatic history than what the Israeli government have managed in the past week.
Live: Massive Israeli strikes rock Beirut
Israel says it 'didn't even respond' to US-French truce proposal
www.middleeasteye.net
Hezbollah leader Nasrallah reportedly targeted in Israeli airstrikes on Beirut; two killed and dozens injured – Middle East crisis live
Israel says it carried out multiple strikes on Hezbollah’s main military HQ in Beirut suburbs; Nasrallah’s condition is unclear
Not sure there has ever been a greater series of gestures of absolute contempt issued in diplomatic history than what the Israeli government have managed in the past week.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
So I see the zionists say they've killed nasrallah
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
This can't go on. If Israel just does whatever the fuck it wants in the region sooner or later someone else (at the moment Iran, but could equally be MBS, Assad etc) could equally decide to do something equally unhinged with countries it doesn't like. And Israel is probably top of everyone's lists of enemies over there atm
It's almost a pity that the Saudis are no longer in a position to withdraw the oil.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Listened to this from World Service this morning
www.bbc.co.uk
Interviews with ordinary people not politicians.
On the Lebanon side two doctors who have been treating those injured in pager attack. Had to deal with horrific injuries. Eyes lost/ hands amputated.
Get the impression from the interviews that whilst not making political points this attack on Lebanon by Israel is seen as that. A attack on the Lebanese people. So if Israel thought this would help to cause more fissures in Lebanon its doing the opposite. Its uniting Lebanon people.
One said this is her land and she is not going whatever Israel says or does.
After pager attack more destruction and deaths with the bombings.
On Israeli side its different as they have the Iron Dome to protect them. One Israeli said they are used to this and so do not panic.
Another said she was one of those Israelis who have a dual citizenship so if things carry on like this may think of leaving.
I'm guessing she was not born there. The other Israeli was.
Quite a big difference between experience of Israelis and Lebanonese people.
Earlier on in morning had two commentators pointing out that ( as I've posted here) when it comes to bombing attacks Israel has done more than Hezbollah
BBC World Service - BBC OS Conversations, Living under attack in Lebanon and northern Israel
Sharing personal experiences from both sides of the border
Interviews with ordinary people not politicians.
On the Lebanon side two doctors who have been treating those injured in pager attack. Had to deal with horrific injuries. Eyes lost/ hands amputated.
Get the impression from the interviews that whilst not making political points this attack on Lebanon by Israel is seen as that. A attack on the Lebanese people. So if Israel thought this would help to cause more fissures in Lebanon its doing the opposite. Its uniting Lebanon people.
One said this is her land and she is not going whatever Israel says or does.
After pager attack more destruction and deaths with the bombings.
On Israeli side its different as they have the Iron Dome to protect them. One Israeli said they are used to this and so do not panic.
Another said she was one of those Israelis who have a dual citizenship so if things carry on like this may think of leaving.
I'm guessing she was not born there. The other Israeli was.
Quite a big difference between experience of Israelis and Lebanonese people.
Earlier on in morning had two commentators pointing out that ( as I've posted here) when it comes to bombing attacks Israel has done more than Hezbollah
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Netanyahu said much the same thing in his speech yesterday - that what they've done to Gaza and Lebanon could be done to Iran and anyone else in the region ("I have a message for the tyrants of Tehran: If you strike us, we will strike you. There is no place—there is no place in Iran—that the long arm of Israel cannot reach. And that’s true of the entire Middle East."). When you add in the context that he knew they were about to bomb Nasrallah (having authorised it apparently before his speech) the message was very clear, or would have been if the region hadn't walked out en masse beforehand.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Netanyahu is doing something right. His and his parties popularity has increased with attack on Lebanon
www.palestinechronicle.com
I do feel Netanyahu is underestimated. Also Likud his party still gets a lot of support.
New Poll - Israel’s Attack on Lebanon Boosts Netanyahu’s Likud Party Popularity
Israel's attack on Lebanon has boosted the popularity of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, a new poll found.
www.palestinechronicle.com
I do feel Netanyahu is underestimated. Also Likud his party still gets a lot of support.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Netanyahu is doing something right. His and his parties popularity has increased with attack on Lebanon
New Poll - Israel’s Attack on Lebanon Boosts Netanyahu’s Likud Party Popularity
Israel's attack on Lebanon has boosted the popularity of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, a new poll found.
I do feel Netanyahu is underestimated. Also Likud his party still gets a lot of support.
Sadly that electorate (and many others across the world) have not realised that the quality of a political figure is displayed more by the absence of problems than by their visibility in dealing with those problems*
* with apologies to Sir Robert Peel
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I don't think the Israelis are the only ones that could strike anywhere in the Middle East, or at least attempt to. This is completely reckless behaviour by Tel Aviv. I don't see how the US lets it continue with even more weapons sales etc
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Indeed, but they probably are the only ones who could do it and get away with it.
Look at the mess MBS got into after the murder of Khashoggi for example, a mess that would have been entirely absent if it turned out he was a known Hamas terrorist wanted for etc etc etc when someone tricked him into walking into an Israeli consulate and he got chopped up. No international outcry (at least in the West) would have resulted.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
MBS has already done what the Israelis are doing to Yemen what the Israelis are doing to Palestinr and Gaza. Assad has already done it to those in Syria who rose up against his dictatorship.
As to Lebanon both Israel and Syria, mainly under Assad's father have a long history of murderous intervention and invasions.
Hariri when he was Prime Minister of Lebanon was kidnapped by MBS, held hostage and forced to resign. His father Rafic Hariri was murdered in 2005, along with twenty other "collaterals", by Hezbollah on behalf of Assad
Israel is not top of the list of everybody's enemies.The Saudis definitely want close relationships with them because of their mutual rivalry with Iran and the need for Israeli acquiescence and collaboration with MBS's grandiose NEOM project.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Sure, but in the long term no consequences actually resulted
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
The idea that Israel is at the top of everyone's shit list is just baseless - Iran and Syria, sure, but noone else.
For the Saudis, is the enemy of its enemy - Iran - causes it no problems, and helps keep the US in the region, which is the Saudi foreign policy objective. They happily provide the Israelis with early warning of Iranian missile attacks, and have a party whenever the Israelis kick lumps out of them. They have an established intelligence relationship.
The Jordanians have a very close int and mil relationship with Israel. Israel is a problem for them given the size of the Palestinian diaspora in Jordan and how it reacts to Israel's actions, but they are very aware that the only people who've tried to overthrow their state are the PLO and it's proxies. They also know the Iraqi's, Iranians, and Syrians hate them.
Lebanon hates Israel, but there are plenty of sections of Lebanese society that loathe Hezbollah, the Syrians, and the Iranians just as much. Somewhere between 'its complicated', and 'happy to take advantage when the opportunity presents itself'.
Gulf states - Iran is the Main Enemy. Everything else takes second place, though there's nuance in how it's handled on a day-to-day basis.
Egypt has it's own problems. It's not going looking in Israel for more. Makes the appropriate noises when required, but that's it. Has an Int relationship with Israel - plenty of those who have a problem with Israel have a problem with Egypt as well.
Iraq - effectively an Iranian proxy state these days, but like Iran, has no wish or intention of getting into a serious fight with Israel - like Iran, it's happy to ditch it's own proxies if they become a problem.
For the Saudis, is the enemy of its enemy - Iran - causes it no problems, and helps keep the US in the region, which is the Saudi foreign policy objective. They happily provide the Israelis with early warning of Iranian missile attacks, and have a party whenever the Israelis kick lumps out of them. They have an established intelligence relationship.
The Jordanians have a very close int and mil relationship with Israel. Israel is a problem for them given the size of the Palestinian diaspora in Jordan and how it reacts to Israel's actions, but they are very aware that the only people who've tried to overthrow their state are the PLO and it's proxies. They also know the Iraqi's, Iranians, and Syrians hate them.
Lebanon hates Israel, but there are plenty of sections of Lebanese society that loathe Hezbollah, the Syrians, and the Iranians just as much. Somewhere between 'its complicated', and 'happy to take advantage when the opportunity presents itself'.
Gulf states - Iran is the Main Enemy. Everything else takes second place, though there's nuance in how it's handled on a day-to-day basis.
Egypt has it's own problems. It's not going looking in Israel for more. Makes the appropriate noises when required, but that's it. Has an Int relationship with Israel - plenty of those who have a problem with Israel have a problem with Egypt as well.
Iraq - effectively an Iranian proxy state these days, but like Iran, has no wish or intention of getting into a serious fight with Israel - like Iran, it's happy to ditch it's own proxies if they become a problem.
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