Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers

[Spymaster]

After reading up on the issue and thus putting up an informed opinion.

Yes I try to read up rather than spout off all the time. Or launch into abusive attacks on posters.

I had , I will again point out to you, that I had been pulled up for not fact checking. The post saying this I noticed you liked.

Therefore when it came down to the pager attack I went and looked up the issue to do some fact checking.

Which it appears you also have a problem with

Oh get over yourself, ffs. Nobody has abusively attacked you.

You're arguing things that nobody has specifically disagreed with, and failing to address substantive points that you've been challenged on or challenged others. Either do that or leave it, but don't keep coming back to me, wibbling-on as if you're hard done by or have made some kind of killer point. You haven't. What the other poster meant by your lack of fact checking (and I agreed with) referred to your propensity to post opinion as fact. It's what you do. Nothing you've posted here changes that. It's not so much your fact checking that's at issue, it's your comprehension of what's being discussed.

 

[Petcha]

Lol, just read the last couple of pages... dudes, chill. We're all on the same side fundamentally.

Bit of a waste of energy. It's a clusterfuck. Let's all agree on that.

Let's see if Biden grows a set for his speech to the UN later.

 

[Gramsci]

Oh get over yourself, ffs. Nobody has abusively attacked you.

You're arguing things that nobody has specifically disagreed with, and failing to address substantive points that you've been challenged on. Either do that or leave it, but don't keep coming back to me, wibbling-on as if you're hard done by or have made some kind of killer point. You haven't. What the other poster meant by your lack of fact checking (and I agreed with) referred to your propensity to post opinion as fact. It's what you do. Nothing you've posted here changes that.

I see your starting to warm up.

Your the one who keeps coming back with the same thing.

If anyone here needs to get over themselves it's you.

I was pulled up about one post where I didn't fact check. You reading into it that this is about my alleged propensity to do this.

Which I have shown is not the case

 

[Gramsci]

Lol, just read the last couple of pages... dudes, chill. We're all on the same side fundamentally.

Bit of a waste of energy. It's a clusterfuck. Let's all agree on that.

Let's see if Biden grows a set for his speech to the UN later.

Actually I'm not on the same side as spymaster. That's pretty clear.

 

[Spymaster]

I see your starting to warm up.

Your the one who keeps coming back with the same thing.

If anyone here needs to get over themselves it's you.

I was pulled up about one post where I didn't fact check. You reading into it that this is about my alleged propensity to do this.

Which I have shown is not the case

Let's just take this as "no, I'm not going to address the point I originally tried to argue", and leave it there, eh?

 

[_Russ_]

By no means

You do this shit a lot yet didnt even catch on that when I continued the theme in another thread I was taking the piss out of your propensity to think the 'no you are' thing = winning a debate.
You remain a constant reminder of the difference between knowledge and wisdom

 

[Petcha]

Actually I'm not on the same side as spymaster. That's pretty clear.

When I say the same side I just mean we all want this shit to be over. I'm in a very chilled out state today so can't be arsed watching normally rational people ripping the shit out of each other on here. But anyway... godspeed.

fwiw i personally hate Hezbollah. Have spent some time living there and had my issues with them, my Lebanese mates agree. But I also time my shits when flying over to hit Israel. Of course that doesn't work but it somehow feels quite good.

The IDF/Netanyahu are cunts. Hezbollah are cunts. Lebanese people are mostly not, and neither are most Israelis. This will not end until Netanyahu is gone.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm in a very chilled out state today so can't be arsed watching normally rational people ripping the shit out of each other on here.

No one is ripping the shit. Gramsci's just getting in a flap because he's confused himself.

This will not end until Netanyahu is gone

Netanyahu going won't solve it. There are too many people on both sides who want the total destruction of the other.

It's intractable and will be for generations.

 

[Pickman's model]

You do this shit a lot yet didnt even catch on that when I continued the theme in another thread I was taking the piss out of your propensity to think the 'no you are' thing = winning a debate.
You remain a constant reminder of the difference between knowledge and wisdom

The basis of knowledge is information, without which no wisdom is possible. And by ignoring that, by taking as your starting point agreement that the taxes were (even subjectively) exorbitant you ignore the unconstitutionality which lay at the heart of the colonists' objections rather than the level of taxation itself. The famous slogan of no taxation without representation sums up the position, it wasn't simply no taxation. My own view is you struggle with argument, believing mere assertion will do. It won't.

 

[Gramsci]

Let's just take this as "no, I'm not going to address the point I originally tried to argue", and leave it there, eh?

I think your a timewaster and I'm putting you on ignore for a while.

As a poster I try to avoid engaging with you as I've seen how you interact with other posters.

It's borderline bullying and can be abusive to extent you earn yourself a ban. Something you don't appear to learn from

 

[klang]

When I say the same side I just mean we all want this shit to be over.

BN wants this over too, hence the death toll.

 

[Spymaster]

As a poster I try to avoid engaging with you as I've seen how you interact with other posters.

Well you haven't tried very hard, have you?

 

[dylanredefined]

That's a selective reading of the situation. Your use of terms like "collateral damage" tell me as much.

Well, it is a quicker phrase that some civilians got hurt, but, we don't really care about them and not enough so we can still claim the operation was successful.
Where the honest reply would be something like.
"You think our civilians are legitimate targets so why should we care about yours?"
Though Israel is supposed to be civilised so weasel words like acceptable collateral damage etc etc. Instead of boasting over the slaughter.

Which posters here support genocide?

Unfortunately, both sides seem to think the answer is the removal of the other side.

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, it is a quicker phrase that some civilians got hurt, but, we don't really care about them and not enough so we can still claim the operation was successful.
Where the honest reply would be something like.
"You think our civilians are legitimate targets so why should we care about yours?"
Though Israel is supposed to be civilised so weasel words like acceptable collateral damage etc etc. Instead of boasting over the slaughter.

Unfortunately, both sides seem to think the answer is the removal of the other side.

All the same, it was indiscriminate. Sorry, chief.

Here's an analogy: a shooter walks into a bar carrying a shotgun. His intention is to kill one person, but, given the nature of the weapon, he ends up killing 6 people who aren't related to the intended victim.

That's what we're dealing with.

 

[Spymaster]

Here's an analogy: a shooter walks into a bar carrying a shotgun. His intention is to kill one person, but, given the nature of the weapon, he ends up killing 6 people who aren't related to the intended victim.

Which is far less indiscriminate than machine-gunning the entire pub and everyone in it, or just blowing it up.

 

[kebabking]

All the same, it was indiscriminate. Sorry, chief.

Here's an analogy: a shooter walks into a bar carrying a shotgun. His intention is to kill one person, but, given the nature of the weapon, he ends up killing 6 people who aren't related to the intended victim.

That's what we're dealing with.

Nah, thoughtlessly simplistic.

1942, and NKVD gets an intercept that old Adolph will be hosting an award ceremony in Bavaria - date, time, location.

The last remnants of the GRU ring in Switzerland is told to make a bomb, get across the border and get the bomb into position. A week later it goes off and kills Hitler - and it turns out that the award ceremony was for bombing victims. Women, kids, all the good stuff. Besides old Adolph and the fragrant Eva, 2 dozen kids are killed.

Indiscriminate?

Overkill?

A pity, but...?

If NKVD had known it to be an awards ceremony for kids - rather than for concentration camp guards, or SS officers - but went ahead anyway? or what if they had cancelled it?

Is there a flat rate, or does it change according to the target?

 

[klang]

love a good Hitler-whataboutery

 

[kebabking]

love a good Hitler-whataboutery

It's always useful, because it forces a bit of intellectual curiosity.

I wonder how many of those who put forward the position than any civilian casualty makes an operation indescrimate would brake the same view if Hezbollah managed an op that killed Netanyahu or one of his fellow nutjobs, but also killed 5 kids?

Still indescrimate, or some sucking of teeth, and 'weeeeelllllllll.....'?

 

[A380]

Nah, thoughtlessly simplistic.

1942, and NKVD gets an intercept that old Adolph will be hosting an award ceremony in Bavaria - date, time, location.

The last remnants of the GRU ring in Switzerland is told to make a bomb, get across the border and get the bomb into position. A week later it goes off and kills Hitler - and it turns out that the award ceremony was for bombing victims. Women, kids, all the good stuff. Besides old Adolph and the fragrant Eva, 2 dozen kids are killed.

Indiscriminate?

Overkill?

A pity, but...?

If NKVD had known it to be an awards ceremony for kids - rather than for concentration camp guards, or SS officers - but went ahead anyway? or what if they had cancelled it?

Is there a flat rate, or does it change according to the target?

That analogy is so unfair!! Loads of good posters on here will now be conflicted because of course they can’t agree with this and yet have posted about how it’s a real pity Thatch wasn’t killed in the Grand Hotel attack.

You monster.

 

[klang]

I would have thought that an army as well trained, equipped and briefed as the IDF would be capable of targeted killings without slaughtering civilians for the sake of peace. Unless of course those slaughtered civilians are part of the targeted killings.

 

[kebabking]

I would have thought that an army as well trained, equipped and briefed as the IDF would be capable of targeted killings without slaughtering civilians for the sake of peace. Unless of course those slaughtered civilians are part of the targeted killings.

I'd be interested in reading your operational concept of how you get 5,000 snipers into Beruit, and within 50 metres or so of their targets - and they have to be that close, because if they want to avoid others being harmed by bullets that go through their targets, they'd have to use subsonic ammunition, which doesn't go very far...

 

[xenon]

I would have thought that an army as well trained, equipped and briefed as the IDF would be capable of targeted killings without slaughtering civilians for the sake of peace. Unless of course those slaughtered civilians are part of the targeted killings.

This episode may well have broken international law, not that Israel GAF. But you don't really think that it's possible to target a large number of individual enemy combatents in a built up area with zero risk to civilians. Or that the IDF have deliberately killed Lebanese civilians. That's daft.

 

[klang]

But you don't really think that it's possible to target a large number of individual enemy combatents in a built up area with zero risk to civilians.

of course I don't, but this war doesn't come out of nowhere. There's a history attached to it.
To me the innocent people caught up in the great slaughter aren't just faceless stats that come as part of the parcel, to me they are human beings who go through the most horrific experiences anyone could ever find themselves in. The trauma caused will impact on generations to come and will be a driver behind future conflicts.

Or that the IDF have deliberately killed Lebanese civilians. That's daft.

Wouldn't put it past them. Traumatising civilians and disabling human recourses tends to be part of a war.

 

[Spymaster]

I would have thought that an army as well trained, equipped and briefed as the IDF would be capable of targeted killings without slaughtering civilians for the sake of peace.

Send in the Ninjas.

 

[Wkdloz]

I would have thought that an army as well trained, equipped and briefed as the IDF would be capable of targeted killings without slaughtering civilians for the sake of peace. Unless of course those slaughtered civilians are part of the targeted killings.

Of course they can - they do it all the time in TV series which is where I assume to get your info from.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nah, thoughtlessly simplistic.

1942, and NKVD gets an intercept that old Adolph will be hosting an award ceremony in Bavaria - date, time, location.

The last remnants of the GRU ring in Switzerland is told to make a bomb, get across the border and get the bomb into position. A week later it goes off and kills Hitler - and it turns out that the award ceremony was for bombing victims. Women, kids, all the good stuff. Besides old Adolph and the fragrant Eva, 2 dozen kids are killed.

Indiscriminate?

Overkill?

A pity, but...?

If NKVD had known it to be an awards ceremony for kids - rather than for concentration camp guards, or SS officers - but went ahead anyway? or what if they had cancelled it?

Is there a flat rate, or does it change according to the target?

Eh? But thanks for the object lesson in how to violate Godwin's Law. Nice sprinkle of whatabouteries too. Bravo.

 

[Spymaster]

The term “whataboutery” and its variants really should bestow an instant “loss of argument” on its user, as its only ever used by those who’ve just had their silliness exposed and can’t come up with anything better!

 

[Pickman's model]

The term “whataboutery” and its variants really should bestow an instant “loss of argument” on its user, as its only ever used by those who’ve just had their silliness exposed and can’t come up with anything better!

It's the use of the what about fallacy that already bestows such on those who deploy it

 

[Spymaster]

It's the use of the what about fallacy that already bestows such on those who deploy it

No, that’s incorrect.

Nino’s analogy was a childish load of old piss-flaps, exposed as such by KK’s response.

 

[Idris2002]

It's always useful, because it forces a bit of intellectual curiosity.

I wonder how many of those who put forward the position than any civilian casualty makes an operation indescrimate would brake the same view if Hezbollah managed an op that killed Netanyahu or one of his fellow nutjobs, but also killed 5 kids?

Still indescrimate, or some sucking of teeth, and 'weeeeelllllllll.....'?

What if the evil the Nazi regime and its leader represented was so extreme that it becomes a special case, and cannot therefore be used as a basis for any analogies used to judge the morality of subsequent acts of violence, terror or war?