Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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maomao
普費斯
They're posing a pretty big problem in the current scenario. Suggesting everybody else should back down and accept the unacceptable or a small band of nutters will kick off does seem to be the basis of all 21st century politics though.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
It affects who gets to migrate to Israel.
The 20% of Israelis who are Christian, Muslim and Druze Palestinians/Israeli Arabs (as oppose to Palestinians who live in the occupied West Bank andGaza) have the same civil rights as Jewish Israelis. However, a lot of jobs are reserved for military veterans Jews and Druze have to do national service other Arabs don't. This is further complicated by the fact that some Bedouin join the army and many Ultra Orthodox Jews refuse to.
Palestinians living in East Jerusalem which was occupied and annexed by Israel after the Six Day War and Syrian Druze living in the annexed Golan Heights were granted permanent residency which includes and the right to apply for full Israeli citizenship.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There are ethnic differences formally built in to Israel itself, the military service requirement being the most obvious one. But that's only the start of it. The bantustanisation of the West Bank and the maintenance of an open-air prison in Gaza are the major expressions of Israeli Apartheid afaic. The Gaza prison is plain criminal, but the idea of a policy of 'separate development' (aka development for some, no development for many) appears most starkly on the West Bank.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Sure, it would. But in a two-state scenario there'd be a border, which would probably help keep angry people apart from each other. In a one-state scenario there'd potentially be nothing but a busy road stopping someone with evil intent wandering into any neighbourhood they want to cause trouble.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Actually I think a major problem is what this requires is something on lines of a civil rights movement plus support from outside. The worldwide support seen in demos is a start.
This would be a long process as the civil rights campaign in US was. And the job still isn't finished.
However it's ongoing. Bit like in this country where we still argue about who is really British. Windrush scandal being recent case.
So changes in a nation state can occur if there is space for civil society to function. Nation stats aren't going away but can be changed.
However any time Palestinians try to use peaceful protest they basically just get themselves killed/ locked up or find they are denied permits etc
What needs to be able to flourish is Palestinian civil society protest.
I just don't see an opening for this Israel is highly militarised society imo.
Not sure what the answer to this is.
Apart from more pressure from western governments.
What I found depressing about being in the demo yesterday was that it's not making any difference.
Starmer last speech was back to Israel has a right to defend itself.
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PTK
Paul Kegan
Well, in terms of making a difference: the workers who handle imports and exports from the State of Isael are in trades unions, and an international boycott of goods to and from that state would certainly bring pressure. There has been some actions by unionised workers in some parts of the world.
I have been unable to attend the demos, so perhaps someone can tell me if any of the speakers have ever advocated that unions engage in a trade boycott?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sure. And the fact that Israel has race/ethnicity-based laws informs and is informed by the way that it treats Palestinians as sub-humans. But I would argue that its most extreme and murderous manifestation comes in the way that it treats the non-citizens it is the de facto ruler of.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The demo last Saturday had an unusually large Trade Union section. Who stopped for a photo opp at end.
I need to work up how to upload pics on my new camera.
I was a bit surprised. As some Unions have been steering clear of this contentious issue.
Early demos were the usual suspects, people like me who started to follow the issue and wonder why my government gives any support to an Apartheid state and majority ordinary people who are Muslim and have middle east background.
I know there were Jews as my local PSC has anti Zionist socialist Jews. The sort of Jews who are considered a fringe group without credibility to be dismissed. I've found them very informative. And object given Jewish history to Zionists sending into exile another group of people.. An entirely rational reaction imo.
But over time the Jewish have their own bloc on demos and it been getting bigger.
But the biggest bloc is the people of middle eastern background who make their own banners. Whole families come along with prams. They just turn up off their own bat as far as I can see.
It's been quite unlike any demo I've been on since the anti Iraq one.
Genuine popular feeling not in any way stirred up by the usual suspects.
I notice Workers Liberty have given up coming. They are usual fixture telling people how they have it all wrong on Israel / Palestine
conflict. Doing there political intervention thing on sidelines. Probably got told where to put their opinions by actual real people with middle east connections
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
And the other thing I've noticed is that there are quite a few people I know who have some Jewish background. It was never something that mattered. On previous demo someone I know involved in local community stuff said her background on one side is Jewish. They were all communists. Originally from Eastern Europe. She comes from several generations of communists. From what she said this was not unusual. And they were all anti Zionist. I never knew this and have known her for years. I knew she was a communist but not the background
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
tony.c
Well-Known Member
Previous PSC marches obviously had many ME people with Palestinian flags. On Sunday there were many with Lebanon flags.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
I agree
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
It really depends though. Im a patrilineal jew/ reform convert but currently go to an orthodox synagogue, I wouldn't say that's true in every case tbh in fact I'd say my shul is probably less zionist than the reform one I was previously at (it certainly has more anti or non zionists going to it).
I've never been to Israel, and doubt I will ever go now. There are the 'birthright' type trips I could have gone on but from what I have heard they are full of propaganda and even when I supported Israel it didn't appeal to me at all.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
This is a good article.
I wish you could see the living nightmare in Palestine. But how much more must we see before something is done? | Nesrine Malik
Those with the power to end this tragedy refuse to understand that Palestinians cannot submit to a fate of being subhuman, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik
I have an Australian friend who has started doing teaching work with refugees in the west bank. Always interesting to hear her take on how the Palestinians are treated by the IDF. To those who live there, I guess it's just "normal".
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yeah my Israeli friend worked as a teacher (in the UK) and she said one time how mind blowing it seemed to relatives in Israel that at schools in the UK kids of every religion and nationality were in the same class, and how unimaginable it was there, not only with Palestinians but with often religious and non religious Israelis as well. There are some places that have done inclusive education there, but iirc they have been harassed by authorities and often closed down.This is a good article.
I wish you could see the living nightmare in Palestine. But how much more must we see before something is done? | Nesrine Malik
Those with the power to end this tragedy refuse to understand that Palestinians cannot submit to a fate of being subhuman, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malikwww.theguardian.com
I have an Australian friend who has started doing teaching work with refugees in the west bank. Always interesting to hear her take on how the Palestinians are treated by the IDF. To those who live there, I guess it's just "normal".
My shul was very pro-Israel. I stopped going ages ago and I can't say I regret it. I know the rabbi and other congregants have family out there but I got sick of being expected to be pro-Israel. A couple of women in the choir were always bugging me to give money to WIZO and wouldn't let up even when I told them I wasn't a Zionist. The Jewish Society at Manchester, my old uni, was predominantly Modern Orthodox/United Synagogue and they were very pro-Israel - I even knew one guy who was an actual Kahanist. A few people I knew from uni have made aliyah now. I know with charedim, opinion is more divided. Incidentally, that cunt Eve Barlow went to Manchester and I didn't know her that well, but we had mutuals. Totally not surprised she's Like That.
On the subject of articles, there's a really good article about how hollow and false Israel's claim to be LGBT-friendly is. Apart from the fact that a lot of Orthodox Jews hate LGBT people, there's also the way Israel treats LGBT Palestinian refugees fleeing homophobia/transphobia. Israel is not safe for them and some of them have even been blackmailed into acting as informants. It's funny how the 'you can't be pro-Palestine if you're queer, they hate gays' crowd never say this about Ukraine even though Ukraine isn't exactly LGBT-friendly either.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Mine isn't hareidi, it's 'independent orthodox' but liberal and masorti groups have services there on occasion. I think the reason my previous reform shul was more conservative was probably just because it was in a small town, its by no means everyone but im in a WhatsApp group with some people from there and...fuck me.
My current shul has plenty of hardline zionists in it but at least there are a few people who are not pro Israel and who are somewhat vocal about their views. It's got slightly better but it is still very difficult. Don't think I've ever been bugged to give money to any organisations though.
I am trying to give as little info as possible to avoid identifying the place so sorry if I've been a bit vague
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
but what do you think?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
When the Torah Is Missing — Hinenu Baltimore
Rabbi Ariana's sermon from Rosh HaShanah 5785, October 3 | 1 Tishrei
www.hinenubaltimore.org
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Nice image and I share your revulsion at all unnecessary, brutal, civilian deaths.
However, without a neat date hook to hang it on, I do wonder what similar posts you will create for the 30x deaths caused by images such as this:
and this,
and this
It's a tricky one isn't it?
Like I said, all unnecessary civilian deaths. Are you going to do one for each day?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
This is a good article.
I wish you could see the living nightmare in Palestine. But how much more must we see before something is done? | Nesrine Malik
Those with the power to end this tragedy refuse to understand that Palestinians cannot submit to a fate of being subhuman, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik
I have an Australian friend who has started doing teaching work with refugees in the west bank. Always interesting to hear her take on how the Palestinians are treated by the IDF. To those who live there, I guess it's just "normal".
Yes. But it's not just the IDF or gun toting settlers
The house demolition described in the article is standard Israeli procedure.
Which has nothing to do with religious settlers.
Post 67 what Ilan Pappe calls, in his book on the occupation, the bureaucracy of evil.
Whilst the settlers and IDF make the headlines the actual bureaucratic detail is how the Zionist state stole Palestinian land in West Bank.
A whole legal and planning system was set up to give a veneer of legality to house demolitions for example.
This also took place in Israel within its original borders post 48 after the expulsion of Palestinians. To help make sure they would not be able to come back
The Zionist state was set up on stealing other people's land.
In West Bank a Kafkaesque surreal system was set up to gradually take Palestinian land and housing.
Id say the IDF are what is most obvious like the settlers.
But the major work of taking Palestinian land was by bureaucrats guided by the state.
And this started under Labour Zionism. For first ten years. Not the hard right of today.
It's a good article. And she has done several good articles on Gaza
What I find missing from articles like this is what is root cause of this. Zionism is never mentioned in articles like this
Cloo
Banana for scale
God knows if they'd recognise me. I'm Masorti, which I know they have at least tried to say isn't Jewish enough. The United synagogue in the UK wouldn't marry my parents because my maternal grandmother's conversion was undocumented (as in Community Czechoslovakia where it wasn't even legal) and so they didn't consider my mum Jewish, which was a fucking insult as 90% of her father's family were murdered in the Holocaust and as member of one of the only 2 Jewish families left in her home town she grew up with people quite often yelling antisemitic slurs at her.
gsv and I went yesterday to a vigil in Kings Cross held by UK Friends of Standing Together, representing supporters of Standing Together, which is a coalition of Israelis and Palestinians campaigning and acting for peace and social justice in the region ( they have, for example, foiled Israeli right-wingers who were attempting to block aid going into Gaza). gsv wanted to go as he wanted to get pictures of members of our synagogue - there were about 8 of us in all - who were there and put in on the synagogue FB page because, as he said, there are plenty of picture of people doing 'I stand with Israel' type events. Now we are a synagogue very to the left of the spectrum that probably has more peaceniks than most and gsv carefully captioned the picture very inoffensively , saying we were there for peace and justice in Israel and Palestine.
Then someone made snarky comments along the lines of 'Well explain what you'd put in a peace treaty then' (I don't know if there's a word or phrase for it, and there ought to be, when someone basically goes 'If you don't have a 100% a solution for a problem, you can't talk about it'
) and comments were closed. And then they removed the post entire and posted something about 'No political posts'. Well, fucking excuse me - so supporting peace is 'political' and supporting Israel come what may isn't?!Anyway, we did at least add 3 or 4 more people to our WhatsApp of synagogue members of our mindset who, as every time we've found more people, said 'Oh, I'm so glad to find other who think the same way'. I think there are many more but a lot are too scared to speak out because it will rock the boat too much. I guess as most of our friends aren't Jewish, it's not as much of an issue for us.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Watched this last night.
What surprised me is the amount of footage/ B and Tik tok IDF soldiers have used. When Israel has stopped reporters going to Gaza. This voluntary footage was looked at by experts who said it could be used a evidence of war crimes.
A engineering section of IDf posted footage of them blowing up buildings. The expert said to him it looked like their was no military reason to do this. This is against international rules of war.
What the doc did not cover was explicit orders to allow some of the things shown in doc. This would I would have thought be more difficult to get hold of.
The following is some of the questionable practices of IDF in Gaza
Mistreatment of prisoners/ Torture - footage available
Killing of civilians with white flags by snipers- footage available
Targeting journalists
Using prisoners as human shields. Strapping cameras to them to use to look into buildings. Which footage was uploaded for general public- footage available
Destruction of infrastructure- footage seen everywhere. As one person said this is live streamed Genocide
All these are against rules of war.
Al Jazeera analyzed footage and found names and what units they were in of IDF who did these things.
The footage of Palestinians attempting to flee fighting reminded me of the Nakba photos I've seen
Need to be remembered that this is how Israel was set up. On the back of destruction of Palestinian villages and expulsion of Palestinians. There is imo a continuity between then and now by Israel.
This isn't just about fighting a war. It's an attack on a whole population. As in 48
It also reminded me of footage of Bosnia / Ex Yugoslavia wars. Which Ilan Pappe in his book on 48 used to demonstrate that what happened in 48 was a war crime.
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