Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

planetgeli said:
Nice image and I share your revulsion at all unnecessary, brutal, civilian deaths.

However, without a neat date hook to hang it on, I do wonder what similar posts you will create for the 30x deaths caused by images such as this:

View attachment 445828

and this,

View attachment 445829

and this

View attachment 445830

It's a tricky one isn't it?

Like I said, all unnecessary civilian deaths. Are you going to do one for each day?
Click to expand...
Or the thousands of Palestinians killed, maimed, displaced and imprisoned without trial by Israelis BEFORE 07.10.24
 
frogwoman said:
Mine isn't hareidi, it's 'independent orthodox' but liberal and masorti groups have services there on occasion. I think the reason my previous reform shul was more conservative was probably just because it was in a small town, its by no means everyone but im in a WhatsApp group with some people from there and...fuck me.

My current shul has plenty of hardline zionists in it but at least there are a few people who are not pro Israel and who are somewhat vocal about their views. It's got slightly better but it is still very difficult. Don't think I've ever been bugged to give money to any organisations though.

I am trying to give as little info as possible to avoid identifying the place so sorry if I've been a bit vague
Click to expand...
Mine had some hardline Zionists as well, converts and born Jews alike. There was one potential convert who said 'good' on hearing that the death toll of Arabs - I forget which one of Israel's many bombing campaigns it was - had reached 1000. I really lost my shit at him over that. He was a vile racist as well, said black people have lower IQs.

Cloo, the Orthodox establishment in Israel don't even recognise some Orthodox conversions. It's mad. I went Reform because I'm bisexual and childfree and both of those things would be a huge barrier to converting Orthodox, because I'd be expected to have children and get married, and Orthodox Judaism forbids same-sex relationships. I get what you mean about the peace treaty as well - it's like the poster on Mumsnet who said 'if you're not calling out every other conflict in the world, you shouldn't be talking about Israel'. There's a fair few hasbara advocates on there. If I wasn't banned, there's no way I'd go near the Jewish subforum because it is very pro-Israel and anyone who's pro-Palestine gets accused of being antisemitic. Or virtue signalling, because it's not like people can't see the endless footage coming from Israel and be angry about it of their own volition.

As for the photos of the ruined buildings...there are no words. It's gone beyond the Hamas attack on the festival now. Although it stopped being about that ages ago.
 
Lotte said:
Mine had some hardline Zionists as well, converts and born Jews alike. There was one potential convert who said 'good' on hearing that the death toll of Arabs - I forget which one of Israel's many bombing campaigns it was - had reached 1000. I really lost my shit at him over that. He was a vile racist as well, said black people have lower IQs.

Cloo, the Orthodox establishment in Israel don't even recognise some Orthodox conversions. It's mad. I went Reform because I'm bisexual and childfree and both of those things would be a huge barrier to converting Orthodox, because I'd be expected to have children and get married, and Orthodox Judaism forbids same-sex relationships. I get what you mean about the peace treaty as well - it's like the poster on Mumsnet who said 'if you're not calling out every other conflict in the world, you shouldn't be talking about Israel'. There's a fair few hasbara advocates on there. If I wasn't banned, there's no way I'd go near the Jewish subforum because it is very pro-Israel and anyone who's pro-Palestine gets accused of being antisemitic. Or virtue signalling, because it's not like people can't see the endless footage coming from Israel and be angry about it of their own volition.

As for the photos of the ruined buildings...there are no words. It's gone beyond the Hamas attack on the festival now. Although it stopped being about that ages ago.
Click to expand...
There are a few people I've been really disappointed by. :( someone even said on fb that they 'didn't believe in proportionality'!
 
frogwoman said:
There are a few people I've been really disappointed by. :( someone even said on fb that they 'didn't believe in proportionality'!
Click to expand...
One thing that I have learned in the past year is that the "eye for an eye" thing was probably a call for proportionality at the time that it was written.

I am not sure if “proportionality” is a valid argument. It is wrong to kill unarmed civilians. If one group kills ten, the other group is not entitled to kill any at all. It would be wrong to say “you killed ten of ours, we will kill ten of yours”.
 
PTK said:
One thing that I have learned in the past year is that the "eye for an eye" thing was probably a call for proportionality at the time that it was written.

I am not sure if “proportionality” is a valid argument. It is wrong to kill unarmed civilians. If one group kills ten, the other group is not entitled to kill any at all. It would be wrong to say “you killed ten of ours, we will kill ten of yours”.
Click to expand...
I agree but this was a reaction to the idea that the Gaza response was 'disproportionate'.
 
Gramsci said:


Watched this last night.

What surprised me is the amount of footage/ B and Tik tok IDF soldiers have used. When Israel has stopped reporters going to Gaza. This voluntary footage was looked at by experts who said it could be used a evidence of war crimes.

A engineering section of IDf posted footage of them blowing up buildings. The expert said to him it looked like their was no military reason to do this. This is against international rules of war.

What the doc did not cover was explicit orders to allow some of the things shown in doc. This would I would have thought be more difficult to get hold of.

The following is some of the questionable practices of IDF in Gaza

Mistreatment of prisoners/ Torture - footage available

Killing of civilians with white flags by snipers- footage available

Targeting journalists

Using prisoners as human shields. Strapping cameras to them to use to look into buildings. Which footage was uploaded for general public- footage available

Destruction of infrastructure- footage seen everywhere. As one person said this is live streamed Genocide

All these are against rules of war.

Al Jazeera analyzed footage and found names and what units they were in of IDF who did these things.




The footage of Palestinians attempting to flee fighting reminded me of the Nakba photos I've seen

Need to be remembered that this is how Israel was set up. On the back of destruction of Palestinian villages and expulsion of Palestinians. There is imo a continuity between then and now by Israel.

This isn't just about fighting a war. It's an attack on a whole population. As in 48

It also reminded me of footage of Bosnia / Ex Yugoslavia wars. Which Ilan Pappe in his book on 48 used to demonstrate that what happened in 48 was a war crime.
Click to expand...


A couple of other things in the Al Jazeera doc on Gaza.

British involvement - From the base in Cyprus surveillance flights over Gaza.

One section stuck in my memory. Hospital was under siege by IDF. Snipers shooting anyone.

The IDF over loudspeakers told the "animals" as they put it to surrender and leave.

IDF the sent a Palestinian prisoner to tell them they would die if they didn't vacate hospital.

The prisoner started to go back with some Palestinians including his mother. The prisoner was in white overalls. Sniper deliberately shot him and killed him in front of his mother.

Leaving the hospital IDF refused to let them use cars and the patient on crutches had to walk helped by others.

The last to leave included some doctors in a car. IDF attacked it. Badly injuring one doctor.

Strikes me that if not directly ordered the IDF and the commanders on the ground know this is acceptable practice.

All the above was filmed by Palestinians.

There was British ex soldier in the programme who said the footage showed lack of discipline.

I don't think so. It looked like troops mainly were doing what those higher up thought was ok.

It's not the first time. The Zionist para military of 48 behaved in similar ways.

It's part of work of IDF to keep Palestinians in line. Acting like colonial British forces acted during days of Empire
 
Gramsci said:
A couple of other things in the Al Jazeera doc on Gaza.

British involvement - From the base in Cyprus surveillance flights over Gaza.

One section stuck in my memory. Hospital was under siege by IDF. Snipers shooting anyone.

The IDF over loudspeakers told the "animals" as they put it to surrender and leave.

IDF the sent a Palestinian prisoner to tell them they would die if they didn't vacate hospital.

The prisoner started to go back with some Palestinians including his mother. The prisoner was in white overalls. Sniper deliberately shot him and killed him in front of his mother.

Leaving the hospital IDF refused to let them use cars and the patient on crutches had to walk helped by others.

The last to leave included some doctors in a car. IDF attacked it. Badly injuring one doctor.

Strikes me that if not directly ordered the IDF and the commanders on the ground know this is acceptable practice.

All the above was filmed by Palestinians.

There was British ex soldier in the programme who said the footage showed lack of discipline.

I don't think so. It looked like troops mainly were doing what those higher up thought was ok.

It's not the first time. The Zionist para military of 48 behaved in similar ways.

It's part of work of IDF to keep Palestinians in line. Acting like colonial British forces acted during days of Empire
Click to expand...
That is shocking.
I can't express my emotional reaction.
 
PTK said:
That is shocking.
I can't express my emotional reaction.
Click to expand...

And there's more in the doc.

I'm a bit speechless that IDF soldiers thought it was ok to put film on FB/ tik tok of their exploits and mistreatment of prisoners.

I mean this in Israel is accepted as normal behaviour. These IDF people contain a lot of ordinary Israelis. Not career soldiers.

Seeing the footage in one doc makes me realise that significant section of Israeli society see Palestinians as an Other. It's reflection of society where racism is normalised. From the top downwards
 
Gramsci said:
And there's more in the doc.

I'm a bit speechless that IDF soldiers thought it was ok to put film on FB/ tik tok of their exploits and mistreatment of prisoners.

I mean this in Israel is accepted as normal behaviour. These IDF people contain a lot of ordinary Israelis. Not career soldiers.

Seeing the footage in one doc makes me realise that significant section of Israeli society see Palestinians as an Other. It's reflection of society where racism is normalised. From the top downwards
Click to expand...
It's one of those situations where people feel free to act on their nastiest impulses.
 
Gramsci said:
A couple of other things in the Al Jazeera doc on Gaza.

British involvement - From the base in Cyprus surveillance flights over Gaza.

One section stuck in my memory. Hospital was under siege by IDF. Snipers shooting anyone.

The IDF over loudspeakers told the "animals" as they put it to surrender and leave.

IDF the sent a Palestinian prisoner to tell them they would die if they didn't vacate hospital.

The prisoner started to go back with some Palestinians including his mother. The prisoner was in white overalls. Sniper deliberately shot him and killed him in front of his mother.

Leaving the hospital IDF refused to let them use cars and the patient on crutches had to walk helped by others.

The last to leave included some doctors in a car. IDF attacked it. Badly injuring one doctor.

Strikes me that if not directly ordered the IDF and the commanders on the ground know this is acceptable practice.

All the above was filmed by Palestinians.

There was British ex soldier in the programme who said the footage showed lack of discipline.

I don't think so. It looked like troops mainly were doing what those higher up thought was ok.

It's not the first time. The Zionist para military of 48 behaved in similar ways.

It's part of work of IDF to keep Palestinians in line. Acting like colonial British forces acted during days of Empire
Click to expand...
But a point you're not making here is that a great proportion of the Israeli population goes through the idf. The sentiments behind these appalling acts both come from wider Israeli society and are reinforced by the experience conscripts have.
 
Interesting reveal about cooperation between IDF and the British army’s 77th brigade , who with a budget of £14.523 million (as of 11 April 2024) specialises in 'information dominance' and psychological operations.

www.declassifieduk.org

UK psychological warfare unit collaborated with Israeli army

Exclusive: The British army’s 77th brigade held secret exchanges with the IDF, leaked files reveal.
www.declassifieduk.org www.declassifieduk.org
 
planetgeli said:
Nice image and I share your revulsion at all unnecessary, brutal, civilian deaths.

However, without a neat date hook to hang it on, I do wonder what similar posts you will create for the 30x deaths caused by images such as this:

View attachment 445828

and this,

View attachment 445829

and this

View attachment 445830

It's a tricky one isn't it?

Like I said, all unnecessary civilian deaths. Are you going to do one for each day?
Click to expand...
I don’t do whataboutery with human suffering.
 
Kid_Eternity said:
I don’t do whataboutery with human suffering.
Click to expand...

I don't think it was whataboutery, not really.

The point is that the dead from October 7th (in Israel they're calling it Black Sabbath which is an obvious thing to do, but as a metal fan I'm finding it a bit vexing) .. the number of dead from that day is now dwarfed by the number of dead since, all of whom deserve a memorial. It's not whataboutery to include them in (as I assume was your intention) some quiet moment of contemplation over this sick behaviour and needless suffering.

All of it, obviously.
 
N_igma said:
The UK doesn’t have a full separation of church and state either.
Click to expand...
Well we should have. What we do have is an increasing separation between the professed beliefs of our social 'elite' and the reality on the ground, where most people no longer believe or are antipathetic to C of E, the established church.
 
I know that most government in the world would be condemning the crimes being committed in the Gaza Strip by the State of Israel, but we don't often hear about this in the media.
 
'BUT OCTOBER SEEEEVEEEEENTH.' The number of Palestinian dead far, far outweighs the number of people killed at the festival.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Protag
Israel-Iran conflicts - news and discussion
6 7 8 9 10
Replies
290
Views
16K
agricola
agricola
Pickman's model
Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers
12 13 14 15 16
Replies
470
Views
20K
Boris Sprinkler
Boris Sprinkler
WhyLikeThis
Mpox - news and discussion
9 10 11 12 13
Replies
387
Views
22K
Cerv
C
teqniq
Worldwide protest/actions concerning events in Gaza/Palestine/Israel
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
173
Views
11K
zahir
Z
littlebabyjesus
Israel's shoddy Gaza propaganda
2 3 4
Replies
116
Views
8K
frogwoman
frogwoman
Back
Top Bottom