Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's this sort of thing As war and religion rages, Israel’s secular elite contemplate a ‘silent departure’ that could scupper Israel, if the scientists etc depart leaving behind the religious loons
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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maomao
普費斯
They make the Russians look like Geneva-sticklers. This is the result of the impunity from all consequences the US has gifted them.
PTK
Paul Kegan
How is the concept of a "Jewish state" any different from the concept of any other nation state?
PTK
Paul Kegan
"Jewish state" in this context is a reference to ethnicity, not religion.
maomao
普費斯
Yes, but lots and lots of countries have the name of an ethnic group in their name. Just calling yourself land of the Jews or the Thais or the Khazaks isn't apartheid in itself.
okay but my understanding was that in the case of Israel the emphasis on being of the right ethnicity goes quite far as in the regulations around aliyah and who does and does not have to carry an id card,gets to drive on certain roads does and does not get building permits and so on but if you say this is not the case i am willing to be persuaded.
maomao
普費斯
Yes but that's because they're racist wankers and it's an apartheid state, not because they're Jews or because it's a Jewish majority state.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
I mean it must be said that Israel is actually quite a diverse society. Its state religion is judaism, but it's also full of mosques and churches that enjoy legal protection (the Al Aqsa mosque's situation is complicated and its covered by special laws IIRC). Homosexuality isn't a crime, and same-sex marriages are recognised in law if they're performed elsewhere (Israel doesn't have any kind of in-house secular marriage system). Israelis themselves are a mixture of people from every continent on Earth. "Ethno-state" doesn't really work for such a place.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Saw an Israeli friend this Friday he said that he didn't think that Israel was a Theocracy but over time he's noticed an increase in intolerance towards liberals and non orthodox Jewish denominations.
And yeah same sex marriages from other countries are legally recognised in Israel (although SSM isnt allowed in Israel itself), but eg two Reform Jews in an opposite sex marriage have to go overseas to get married, let alone an Israeli and a Palestinian. Secular marriage basically doesn't exist there.
And yeah same sex marriages from other countries are legally recognised in Israel (although SSM isnt allowed in Israel itself), but eg two Reform Jews in an opposite sex marriage have to go overseas to get married, let alone an Israeli and a Palestinian. Secular marriage basically doesn't exist there.
PTK
Paul Kegan
The "different roads" thing applies to the West Bank, no to the State of Israel within the "Green Line" (the 1948 ceasefire lines). Yes, there is discrimination within the State of Israel against the Palestinian Arab population, but is that necessary?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Well it wouldn't be the zionist entity any more
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Some of this is how one sees Zionism.
One view is that state of Israel crossed a line at a certain point and became an Apartheid state. This is line taken by Btselem and groups like Amnesty International.
Another is that Zionism itself is a racist colonial project and that its apartheid nature is inbuilt from the start.
Which ever one holds to the following applies.
As you say in your other post about building permits - this is how apartheid states work. The small details of everyday life.
Its covered in work of the Israeli architect Eyal Weisman who demonstrates how inside Israel itself and in West Bank this system is built into the architecture. In fact it was first done in creation of the Israel state in its pre 67 borders.
Within State of Israel its been so normalised that Palestinian presence has been erased. Villages turned into parks etc.
PTK
Paul Kegan
Yes, it would. This is also why it will not integrate the West Bank into the State of Israel, for to do so would give the right to vote to the Palestinian Arab people who live there.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I was watching interview with the man who set up the Palestinian Land Society
Palestine Land Society
Palestine Land Society is an independent non-profit scholarly society dedicated towards research and information-gathering on Palestine, the land and its people.
He reckons its possible for Palestinians to return. Without leading to Jewish population having to leave.
His is technical plan to show its possible.
So yes there is nothing to stop it as such.
So why do Israel not allow it?
Zionism is land plus demographics. Having to many Arabs in the country upsets the demographics. Even if it was practically possible to do the Zionist state would oppose it.
Its why it is correct to say this is racism.
As PTK says Israel could possibly annex West Bank. But then all those Palestinians would get a vote. In 67 the option was looked at and rejected. The other option - ethnic cleansing was looked at and also rejected as this time the Israel government thought that they would not be able to get away with it. World public opinion had changed.
So some Palestinians were "encouraged" to leave but instead the building of settlements and piecemeal taking of Palestinian land started as main policy. As described by Eyal Weizman.
The Allon plan being early suggestion
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mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Palestine Land Society
Palestine Land Society is an independent non-profit scholarly society dedicated towards research and information-gathering on Palestine, the land and its people.www.plands.org
He reckons its possible for Palestinians to return. Without leading to Jewish population having to leave.
His is technical plan to show its possible.
So yes there is nothing to stop it as such.
So why do Israel not allow it?
It certainly is "possible", technically. Why Israel doesn't allow it, it wouldn't solve the problem of violence; there'd basically be civil war. The new state of [Israel/Palestine] at that point would need to be run and policed by the UN. It would instantly be a failed state and probably even worse than it is now.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Worse for whom? Even worse for the people of Gaza than it is right now?
In the 80s, plenty of people forecast that ending apartheid in South Africa would lead to civil war. It didn't.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't see how any solution to the violence in the region can start from any other point than one that acknowledges that Israel right now is an apartheid state.
That's just the starting line, not the end point. But how do we get to the starting line?
That's just the starting line, not the end point. But how do we get to the starting line?
PTK
Paul Kegan
Why would allowing Palestinian Arabs to settle in the State of Israel create a civil war?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
I’m not sure it would. They’d have to do it fairly and over time, and there would be outbreaks of violence, but I think it’s possible to do it.
If it was up to me I’d do it over a twenty year period, and start with an immediate right of return, citizenship and some sort of financial assistance in the new state for any Palestinian alive in 1948 who is still with us now. Where villages were emptied and destroyed they’d be rebuilt and stolen property restored where possible.
Granting of citizenship for people making aliyah would stop immediately, and every couple of years the citizenship would be extended to younger and younger groups, until after 20 years it would be extended to everyone. Kids would get the new citizenship at birth. Anyone committing serious acts of violence designed to disrupt the process would, on conviction, lose citizenship.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
You'd have most trouble with this. It'd never stand.
To anyone asking, why civil war? The ultra-religious settlers would make sure of it. Those guys are proper zealots, and armed to the teeth.
Plus a lot of trauma and anger for many palestinians to work through.
It'd be .. volatile. At best.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The Palestinian Land Society has been doing architecture competitions each year. Each year the architects put forward plans for rebuilding a particular village.
The Palestinian Land Society over years has assembled information on all the land lost. Who lived in Which village. Where demolished villages stood. All the information to do as you suggest.
The guy who was interviewed said this would not lead to displacement of Jews.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You have suggested previously that west bank should be handed back to Palestinians to make a genuine separate state for a two state solution. If I remember correctly.
Would not this also set off the religious settlers?
Not intentionally having a go here. But any just solution has risks.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The status quo rather risky too
PTK
Paul Kegan
That is a very good point.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It would absolutely be volatile, which is why we would need the long time period. Helping people's nans and granddads go home before they die would help defuse some of that, and they'd be the people who Israeli society would see as least threatening.
The most extreme of the settlers would pose a problem, but they will in any scenario.
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