Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Kevbad the Bad]

This is both concise and readable. Not required reading, and older editions predate the modern state of Israel, but it gives a good account of how Judaism has lasted and migrated, and how the dream of restoring a kingdom in Palestine has come and gone through the ages.

It's very important IMO to separate the behaviour of this modern jewish state, from the mere fact of it existing at all. I'm certain a lot of readers here don't care to.

I don't like the existence of any religious states. Or racialist ones. Israel fits both categories. The fact that it is Jewish is immaterial in my antipathy towards it.

 

[Rimbaud]

I don't think that there is any evidence that the Ancient Israelites were enslaved in Egypt.

Not true - there are ancient Hebrew markings found carved into parts of the pyramids.

It's a long time ago and hard to find much corroborating evidence, but it stands to reason that the story of Exodus probably has some roots in actual events. Egypt was a slave society, and was able to be so by the fertile Nile region being a relatively enclosed space surrounded by desert so slaves could not easily escape.

Given that Jerusalem is not far from Egypt, it seems more likely that the Old Testament account of Moses leading the Israelites across the desert is probably something that more or less happened. I'm sure slaves did escape and try to cross the desert sometimes. If some did succeed then it would be surprising if it didn't become a founding myth of their people.

I read Exodus recently and what struck me was how much Moses had trouble with Israelites pissed off with him for leading them into a barren desert. Seems more likely that the mythology established in the Old Testament was a way for the leadership (Moses) to justify themselves and motivate their followers by providing sublime meaning for their arduous journey, rather than something wholly fictitious.

 

[Humberto]

Not true - there are ancient Hebrew markings found carved into parts of the pyramids.

It's a long time ago and hard to find much corroborating evidence, but it stands to reason that the story of Exodus probably has some roots in actual events. Egypt was a slave society, and was able to be so by the fertile Nile region being a relatively enclosed space surrounded by desert so slaves could not easily escape.

Given that Jerusalem is not far from Egypt, it seems more likely that the Old Testament account of Moses leading the Israelites across the desert is probably something that more or less happened. I'm sure slaves did escape and try to cross the desert sometimes. If some did succeed then it would be surprising if it didn't become a founding myth of their people.

I read Exodus recently and what struck me was how much Moses had trouble with Israelites pissed off with him for leading them into a barren desert. Seems more likely that the mythology established in the Old Testament was a way for the leadership (Moses) to justify themselves and motivate their followers by providing sublime meaning for their arduous journey, rather than something wholly fictitious.

Doesn't sound very substantial that. Potential derail though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Doesn't sound very substantial that. Potential derail though.

It's not such a derail given the importance many in Israel attach to biblical stories as justification for their domination of the region and eviction of current residents.

tbf most legends have germs of truth to them. I'd be very surprised if the Moses myth had no historical basis at all. Doesn't mean any particular detail is likely to be true. All you can really say is that some movement of people along the lines of the exodus probably happened. Bit like a Trojan War happened, but that doesn't make any of the specific stories in the Iliad true.

I think the important takeaway should be that, wrt current claims for land and ownership, it doesn't matter either way. The exodus story of the people of Gaza is still in living memory. It is orders of magnitude more relevant.

 

[Humberto]

It's not such a derail given the importance many in Israel attach to biblical stories as justification for their domination of the region and eviction of current residents.

tbf most legends have germs of truth to them. I'd be very surprised if the Moses myth had no historical basis at all. Doesn't mean any particular detail is likely to be true. All you can really say is that some movement of people along the lines of the exodus probably happened. Bit like a Trojan War happened, but that doesn't make any of the specific stories in the Iliad true.

I think the important takeaway should be that, wrt current claims for land and ownership, it doesn't matter either way.

I do wonder sometimes if this current government fancy themselves as Judas Maccabeus.

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't like the existence of any religious states. Or racialist ones. Israel fits both categories. The fact that it is Jewish is immaterial in my antipathy towards it.

I mean obviously that's dead noble and everything, but I'd suggest knowing something of the black and bloody centuries that lie behind the conception and growth of zionism in the first place, might temper suggestions that zionism was always racist anyway, with understanding that zionism was conceived as a reaction to and result of centuries of racism against jews.

 

[Humberto]

I'd be very surprised if the Moses myth had no historical basis at all.

No evidence though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No evidence though.

And as I said, doesn't matter either way. If compelling evidence were to be found (as it was for Troy), it wouldn't change anything regarding what we should do now. What we should do now cannot and must not be contingent on the truth or otherwise of ancient tales.