Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
I don't like the existence of any religious states. Or racialist ones. Israel fits both categories. The fact that it is Jewish is immaterial in my antipathy towards it.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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Not true - there are ancient Hebrew markings found carved into parts of the pyramids.
It's a long time ago and hard to find much corroborating evidence, but it stands to reason that the story of Exodus probably has some roots in actual events. Egypt was a slave society, and was able to be so by the fertile Nile region being a relatively enclosed space surrounded by desert so slaves could not easily escape.
Given that Jerusalem is not far from Egypt, it seems more likely that the Old Testament account of Moses leading the Israelites across the desert is probably something that more or less happened. I'm sure slaves did escape and try to cross the desert sometimes. If some did succeed then it would be surprising if it didn't become a founding myth of their people.
I read Exodus recently and what struck me was how much Moses had trouble with Israelites pissed off with him for leading them into a barren desert. Seems more likely that the mythology established in the Old Testament was a way for the leadership (Moses) to justify themselves and motivate their followers by providing sublime meaning for their arduous journey, rather than something wholly fictitious.
Humberto
Relax
Doesn't sound very substantial that. Potential derail though.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's not such a derail given the importance many in Israel attach to biblical stories as justification for their domination of the region and eviction of current residents.
tbf most legends have germs of truth to them. I'd be very surprised if the Moses myth had no historical basis at all. Doesn't mean any particular detail is likely to be true. All you can really say is that some movement of people along the lines of the exodus probably happened. Bit like a Trojan War happened, but that doesn't make any of the specific stories in the Iliad true.
I think the important takeaway should be that, wrt current claims for land and ownership, it doesn't matter either way. The exodus story of the people of Gaza is still in living memory. It is orders of magnitude more relevant.
Humberto
Relax
I do wonder sometimes if this current government fancy themselves as Judas Maccabeus.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I mean obviously that's dead noble and everything, but I'd suggest knowing something of the black and bloody centuries that lie behind the conception and growth of zionism in the first place, might temper suggestions that zionism was always racist anyway, with understanding that zionism was conceived as a reaction to and result of centuries of racism against jews.
Humberto
Relax
No evidence though.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And as I said, doesn't matter either way. If compelling evidence were to be found (as it was for Troy), it wouldn't change anything regarding what we should do now. What we should do now cannot and must not be contingent on the truth or otherwise of ancient tales.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I was under the impression that the notion the pyramids were built by slaves had been exploded. See eg Who Built the Pyramids? | Harvard Magazine Hebrew markings on pyramid stones therefore don't speak to a subordinate position in Egyptian society but quite a privileged one, and I am not persuaded that literacy was more widespread among slaves in ancient Egypt than it was among eg slaves in the c18 Caribbean or c19 united states.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
The fact is the world has to deal with the Jewish state as you call it as it exists now
It practicallity it matters much less what it may in your opinion have been in the past.
I base this on nothing but reading between the lines of Exodus, but my impression from reading it was that the Israelites were probably some kind of elite caste of slave, e.g. servants of the powerful families. Just basing it on how Moses seems to have access to the Pharoah etc.
Of course we can't really prove this either way, but that's what I imagine the situation was.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Not really. It's more like if Romans had been evicted from Rome by some foreign power so that their descendants had mainly become a vast diaspora over many centuries. That diaspora continued evoking Rome in prayer and continued to be mystically / spiritually associated with Rome by nearly everyone including themselves, while suffering extraordinary levels of racism and oppression, occasional massacres and evictions from wherever they settle. Finally nearly 2000 years later, a movement grows aimed at making these ancient prayers come true, and some of those who still observe the ancient Romans' traditions (and still get regularly persecuted for it) realise what they need is a country of their own, in the place where they consider their ancestors came from, or at least where the traditions they observe were invented and originated.
Which is slightly different.
I suppose I'm struggling to understand how it's OK for Jews to settle in the USA on land that we now agree was basically stolen, or eg Australia, or Argentina, but not Palestine.
Again, for me it's about the way it's been done, not the fact it's been done. Complaining about the fact it's been done is IMO pretty shaky ground, when you look at the long historical experience that provoked the conception and growth of zionism in the 19th century.
maomao
普費斯
It's not really the settling so much as the building a genocidal apartheid state. Some people have suggested they could have built a country somewhere that wouldn't involve killing and displacing large numbers of people. It seems unrealistic and even a bit silly but I don't think it's a completely unreasonable idea.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Well quite. It's not the fact of it happening so much as what that's turned into.
A state elsewhere is a nice idea, but would still no doubt be on land some other people could claim was stolen (Uganda, Argentina) so I'm not sure why it'd be better.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
You often on this issue imply bad faith, ignorance or antisemitism without backing it up. That's not dead noble. I referred to the state of Israel, not the history of Zionism, and Israel is and has been exclusionist and racialist from its inception. The black and bloody history you refer to (about which I am obviously completely ignorant) may help to explain Israel and its behaviour but it does not excuse it, anymore than the black and bloody history of black slavery excuses black racism. Or the Irish potato famine excuses Irish anti-British prejudice. Etc etc.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I never, ever post here in bad faith.
Also, I never posted that the current behaviour of the state of israel can be explained or excused by centuries of anti-semitism (what was that about bad faith?), I posted that the conception and growth of political zionism in C19 was a reaction against and result of centuries of anti-semitism.
I suspect the trauma of the holocaust is primarily what has made the state created out of that more militant and less compassionate than eg Herzl may have imagined it.
Well, we can agree now that the European settlement of the Americas wasn't OK - but back then there was a lot less information about what was going on, and due to the vastness of the land and the sparse population of mostly hunter gatherers rather than farmers, what was happening wasn't even necessarily clear to those actively engaged in it, as they saw themselves as settling unused land (which was used, but in a different way).
If something similar was happening to Native Americans today as is happening to the Palestinians, you can bet there would also be a massive outcry.
FWIW, I do think Israel has the right to exist now. Like the Americas and Australia, what's done is done and it isn't realistic to reverse it.
But it is possible to stop what is happening now, and to try to come to some sort of workable solution for both sides. And the fact is that the current Israeli government is not remotely interested in this, and only they have the power to change things. The Palestinians in the West Bank already compromised as far as is realistically possible, yet expansion of settlements continues regardless.
I appreciate your posts here and your perspective is valuable. I think the posters here dismissing the emotional pull of Zionism for Jews who may like yourself be aghast at what is happening are playing into the hands of the Israeli right wing who it seems to me thrive off the idea that everyone is out to get us and we have to put ourselves first.
But on the other hand, unconditional support by western powers for Israel is part of how we got here as well. I'm not sure what the right balance is though, or if a solution even is possible at all. The situation seems hopeless and depressing.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
At the risk of oversharing, I should say to be clear that my views on the state of Israel don't come out of my family background. Politically, my mother was a staunch anti-zionist and my father simply didn't care at all. My views have been formed by my own life experience and a lot of reading throughout many years on Jewish history, the growth of political zionism, as well as a fair amount of time spent living there assimilating language and culture etc. Any Judaism I might observe (and it's not a lot) has come out of that overall experience, and while I'm happy to condemn the appalling behaviour of Israeli racists and psychopaths, and while I've known since 2000 that I could never live there again, I am honestly glad it exists, and I really just wish it could be made into something peaceful and just. Sadly I don't expect that anytime soon, and I know this view is extremely unpopular (to be polite) in left-wing politics, but there it is.
Anyway I really don't want to get into a thing about me personally. I just feel like anyone else who might express anything like my views has been pretty much scared away, so it's left to me to do this simply because I don't scare easily.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
I wasn't accusing you of posting in bad faith, but of implying bad faith in others.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
TBF the European settlement of the Americas was seen as wrong at the time - de las Casas for example argued for years about it and even got the Spanish Crown to order the colonists to treat "their" subjects in the Americas decently, though sadly those laws were ignored.
The Columbian exchange ravaged the population of the Americas, with waves of epidemics.
They had little or no immunity to bubonic plague, chickenpox, cholera, diphtheria, influenza, leprosy, malaria, measles, mumps, smallpox, typhoid fever, typhus, yellow fever.
Reforestation of previously farmed land may have been a factor in one of the little ice ages.
The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David Wengrow, discusses the diversity and complexity of Pre-Columbian North American societies.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Well, I was not. Bad faith might be your inference, but was not my implication. I'm simply clarifying that the historical background to political zionism was centuries of anti-jewish racism, not racist motivations in the earliest jewish zionists.
We might argue that C19 was a century of all-round racism, and I'd not disagree. But putting that onto jews and their creation of zionism, rather than acknowledging their victimhood of racism as zionism's formative experience, has history largely backwards.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
On the contrary, one of the only ways this conflict ends is if Israeli public opinion tips into opposition. How they conceive their worldview is thus very important.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On the history.
I have started to read history of middle east going backwards.
What is forgotten is the Ottoman Empire. Which was broken up after WW1.
My previous post about co existence within the late Ottoman Empire points to a different history for the area that could have happened. Where Jews , Christians and Muslims all lived together.
The middle east was not the same as Americas and Australia.
Ottoman Empire had been modernising or attempting to modernise. It took WW1 for it to be finally broken up.
Whilst the Mandates run by UK and France were part colonisation it was not about replacing or killing off the indigenous population. More about looking after Imperial interests. Safeguarding the Suez Canal and looking at oil supplies. As navies had started to change to oil from coal. Getting local elites to do deals to protect Imperial interests in exchange for independence. The kind of grubby late Imperialism that was excused by European empires being supposedly guiding backward people to self government.
Whilst different sections of the Arab population pushed for self determination as they were promised.
Into this came Zionism. Which had not been any part of the existing societies in the area.. Arab Jews had been part of the Ottoman population but saw themselves as Arab and Jewish.
So imo Zionism was a disaster for the existing population of the area. The roots of the present conflict go back to the break up of Ottoman Empire and the way the British decided to run the Mandate.
As the Palestinian American historian put it the Balfour Declaration was first declaration of war on the Palestinian people.
I have started to read history of middle east going backwards.
What is forgotten is the Ottoman Empire. Which was broken up after WW1.
My previous post about co existence within the late Ottoman Empire points to a different history for the area that could have happened. Where Jews , Christians and Muslims all lived together.
The middle east was not the same as Americas and Australia.
Ottoman Empire had been modernising or attempting to modernise. It took WW1 for it to be finally broken up.
Whilst the Mandates run by UK and France were part colonisation it was not about replacing or killing off the indigenous population. More about looking after Imperial interests. Safeguarding the Suez Canal and looking at oil supplies. As navies had started to change to oil from coal. Getting local elites to do deals to protect Imperial interests in exchange for independence. The kind of grubby late Imperialism that was excused by European empires being supposedly guiding backward people to self government.
Whilst different sections of the Arab population pushed for self determination as they were promised.
Into this came Zionism. Which had not been any part of the existing societies in the area.. Arab Jews had been part of the Ottoman population but saw themselves as Arab and Jewish.
So imo Zionism was a disaster for the existing population of the area. The roots of the present conflict go back to the break up of Ottoman Empire and the way the British decided to run the Mandate.
As the Palestinian American historian put it the Balfour Declaration was first declaration of war on the Palestinian people.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
^ the bit in bold, it's as partisan as anything a partisan israeli historian would write.
But considering how you urged everyone to consider the context and background to what took place on October 7th 2023, I don't think you're giving enough consideration to the context and background of the creation of political zionism itself. Pogroms, mass jewish emigration from E.Europe to anywhere that would have them (mainly the USA), the rise of socialism and internationalism, as well as ideas of nationalism that still hold sway now and are all basically disastrous.
From a jewish historical perspective, it looks a bit like this.
Romans: "fuck off";
Muslims: "convert to Islam or fuck off";
Crusaders: "die";
Christans later: "die, or fuck off".
Again and again: "convert, die or fuck off"
Jews: "fuck this, let's fuck off"
Elsewhere: "not here! fuck off to America instead!"
America: "come on then, if you must"
Theodore Herzl (among others): "hang on, what if...."
Say what you like about the behaviour of modern Israel, it's a disgusting mess atm, but you seem to be treating political zionism itself as a kind of intractable enemy without, as far as I can tell, acknowledging where it came from.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What do we do with that history now, though? It doesn't justify a damn thing now. Israeli Zionists are in the position of power now. They are the persecutors.
Why are we justified in punching you? Because they punched us.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
History is prologue and gives an inkling of how things will turn out - and once again I'll point to the crusader states which lasted while the Muslims were disunited but fell when they were united. Muslim polities could and did ally with the kingdom of Jerusalem and principality of antioch, as eg Jordan has helped defend the zionist entity. But the crusader states as the ze does relied on outside support, on an influx of knights not simply during the various crusades but between times too. The Americans in this comparison stand in for French and German knights. The Iranians reckon that the ze will be gone by 2040. I think they'll be gone sooner than that as the ability of the zionists to endure depends largely on American weapons and so they are hostages to fortune. With the Americans sending weapons to Ukraine and Taiwan, with the Americans thus far reluctant to move to a wartime economy, the zionists are imo living on borrowed time as at some point the Americans will need their production largely for their own forces. And whether Taiwan kicks off next year as I believe or whether it's 2027, at some point the supply of American materiel will dry up. And I think that'll coincidr with a greater unity among the Arab states who'll recognise that their interests are best served by removing the turbulent zionists.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Comparing the ZE to crusader states is a bit off, seeing as (among its many err glories) the first crusade rounded up all the Jews in Jerusalem, locked them in a synagogue, and set it on fire.
For historical precedent I expect the siege of Masada will prove the most prescient event, if your sooner-than-2040 prediction becomes reality.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You've stated in the past on here that opposition to the idea of a Jewish state is antisemitic. You've as good as called a bunch of people on here antisemitic for their anti-Zionist views. There's a lot to unpack there regarding representation and misrepresentation.
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