Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Membership of the UN has nothing to do with morality. There would be a lot of other nations, including the four permanent members of the Security Council, who would be out on their ear, if it did.
teqniq
DisMembered
And here we have the Saudi foreign minister advocating the imo dead duck of the 2 state solution in the FT in which he says
'Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman recently reaffirmed our commitment to creating an independent Palestinian state. He emphasised that “the Palestinian issue is at the forefront of [Saudi Arabia’s] concerns”
Saudi foreign minister: A two-state solution is more urgent than ever
Meanwhile:
www.middleeasteye.net
'Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman recently reaffirmed our commitment to creating an independent Palestinian state. He emphasised that “the Palestinian issue is at the forefront of [Saudi Arabia’s] concerns”
Saudi foreign minister: A two-state solution is more urgent than ever
Meanwhile:
Saudi crown prince said he personally 'doesn't care' about Palestinian issue
Mohammed bin Salman reportedly told Antony Blinken that while he was not concerned about 'the Palestinian issue', the young Saudi population were
www.middleeasteye.net
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
And here we have the Saudi foreign minister advocating the imo dead duck of the 2 state solution in the FT in which he says
'Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman recently reaffirmed our commitment to creating an independent Palestinian state. He emphasised that “the Palestinian issue is at the forefront of [Saudi Arabia’s] concerns”
Saudi foreign minister: A two-state solution is more urgent than ever
Meanwhile:
Saudi crown prince said he personally 'doesn't care' about Palestinian issue
Mohammed bin Salman reportedly told Antony Blinken that while he was not concerned about 'the Palestinian issue', the young Saudi population were
If countries like Saudi Arabia in middle east were democratic then this wouldn't stop the Israel / Palestine conflict.
As across a lot of the middle east the rulers of middle east states are loathed to take on board the views of their subjects
And if they do its grudgingly.
If there was a flowering of democracy across middle east I think Israel would be in more trouble. Wouldn't just be Iran.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
PTK
Paul Kegan
I have just found about the assassination of Palestinian cartoonist in London in 1987.
Two suspects in the killing of Naji al-Ali were apparently members of the PLO who confessed to be being double agents of Mossad, the external intelligence service of the State of Israel.
Thatched took action against the State of Israel.
“By refusing to pass on the relevant information to their British counterparts, Mossad earned the displeasure of Britain, which retaliated by expelling three Israeli diplomats, one of whom was the embassy attaché identified as the handler for the two agents. A furious Margaret Thatcher, then prime minister, closed Mossad’s London base in Palace Green, Kensington.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naji_al-Ali#Assassination
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Chief Rabbi does a defence of Zionism in New Statesman. It's not getting a good press at the moment. So makes sense.
Comes across at points as a full of barbs against what he sees calls " fashionable" views on Zionism.
So in his counter universe its Jews who were the indigenous people of Israel/ Palestine. It was the colonising Romans who renamed it Palestine. In order to erase Jewish link to land.
He also wants to have his cake and eat it.
So in his view Jews have a bond with Zionism / Israel. This goes beyond politics.
Ok fair enough. But can't help feel he is not distinguishing between Israel the state and Zionism in that case.
He's been outspoken on objecting to the limited arms embargo by Labour government for example. His isn't a purely spiritual Zionism.
Yet makes clear anyone who equates Zionism , which in his view is core part of Jewish identity, with the politics of the present state is bordering on anti semitism. Which is exactly what he does. He's been supporting this government of the state of Israel by opposing arms embargo for example.
His view is that Zionism is a peaceful tolerant concept and that Arabs are the ones who are violent and hostile.
This is fantasy island stuff. Just blatantly ignoring what's been happening now and in the past.
Has he never read Moshe Dayan famous speech at the funeral of Israel armed force member? At least with a real Zionist like that they are honest about it.
And in his approach to Zionism that it's above politics with the link with the land he' is coming near to what Netanyahu and right say in Israel.
In his article he doesn't say what the borders are. Nothing on West Bank. So does he think Judea and Samaria as Netanyahu call West Bank are part of Jewish land?
His take on Zionism is at once concrete. Jews are indigenous to this particular land, But also it's also a religious spiritual attachment of all Jews where ever they are. So in that case it's not about self determination as such. Its as he argues a core part of Jewish Identity across the diaspora. Something all Jews in his opinion identify with. Regardless of whether they want to live their or not.
On Holocaust he's on firmer ground. After WW2 other countries weren't exactly falling over themselves to accept Jews. So Palestine became one place to try to get to. Though pre Holocaust Zionism wasn't big in Jewish communities. Most Jews trying to get out of Europe wanted to go to somewhere like USA.
The whole non Zionist history of European Jews he just ignores. A different kind of relationship between Jewish thought and politics. His argument is that this is minority support in Jewish community so not worth the bother.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Just to add. The Chief Rabbi is right building a new country called Israel is an achievement. Id say however that what was made was a new kind of Jewish Identity. Some early Zionists like David Ben Gurion wanted this. A new start. Choose Hebrew instead of Yiddish. To show the difference between the new Israeli citizen and the the old European Jews.
Not criticising this. Just that Chief Rabbi article gives impression Jewish Identity is unchanging. No identity is unchanging.
If identity was fixed future would be bleak for peace imo.
Not criticising this. Just that Chief Rabbi article gives impression Jewish Identity is unchanging. No identity is unchanging.
If identity was fixed future would be bleak for peace imo.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
The FT has a very detailed report on Israel's attacks on Lebanon Subscribe to read (like about 10 A4 pages if printed)
came up for me without paying - they have my name & address. Presumably archive.ph otherwise.
The editor of the FT Roula Khalaf is of course Lebanese, as is her husband, no no doubt she has an investment in putting the facts on record.
came up for me without paying - they have my name & address. Presumably archive.ph otherwise.
The editor of the FT Roula Khalaf is of course Lebanese, as is her husband, no no doubt she has an investment in putting the facts on record.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Al Jazeera carrried the Ayatollah's Friday Payers today
I've tried a couple of times to watch Al Jazeera on Freeview 251 since it went off air on the old slot of Freeview 235.
I can't get stable reception - looks as though the transmission is HD, but the Freeview online service does not seems to have the bandwidth to do it.
Same on Roku.
In any case it does appear that Al Jazeera are taking advantage of their freedom from OFCOM regulation. Just look at the Ayatollah's sermon above.
Split screen shows various emotive scenes particularly involving children, aerial bombardment etc Not Eisenstein obviously - but propaganda as well as news.
I've tried a couple of times to watch Al Jazeera on Freeview 251 since it went off air on the old slot of Freeview 235.
I can't get stable reception - looks as though the transmission is HD, but the Freeview online service does not seems to have the bandwidth to do it.
Same on Roku.
In any case it does appear that Al Jazeera are taking advantage of their freedom from OFCOM regulation. Just look at the Ayatollah's sermon above.
Split screen shows various emotive scenes particularly involving children, aerial bombardment etc Not Eisenstein obviously - but propaganda as well as news.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I watch Al-Jazeera via Vermin Media on Channel 622.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I'm still reading the article, I may respond further but I don't really fancy the hostility and name calling it might provoke; so, better to just not argue.
However, I will quote the very first paragraph:
It is said that Chaim Weizmann, who would later become the first president of the State of Israel, was once asked by a member of the House of Lords why Jews were so fixated on one tiny, contested piece of land. Were there not other territories in which a Jewish state could be established? Weizmann responded that this would be like asking why he had driven 20 miles to visit his mother, when there were many other perfectly nice old ladies living on his street.
If you don't understand that, don't sympathize with it at all, I suspect you can't understand how and why so many (not all but a lot of) jews feel about Eretz Israel despite everything. Even if they don't want to live there; to rinse Weizmann's analogy, you might never visit your mother and maybe even hate a lot of the things she's done, but you're kind of glad to know she's still alive.
I don't know how I'd feel if my mother was a mass-murderer, because she wasn't. But if she had been, i imagine very very conflicted could be an understatement.
Anyway, I'm going back to reading this article now. I've read every single link on this thread so far (i may have missed one or two on the fast news days tbh) . I hope I'm not alone in that.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Sadly the IDF testing the proposition..
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Two things I'm surprised he doesn't mention amongst all the history.
First, that there have been Jews living in Palestine continuously since 70AD. All jews did not leave when Jerusalem was razed. Not all left or converted when Islam arrived. Jews lived there during the Ottoman centuries. Tzfat (Sefat), Tiberias, Be'ersheva, all have had continuous Jewish communities in all that time (possibly Jerusalem too though there was a century or so when crusaders were killing them all so possibly also not)
But second, there have been attempts since the middle ages at least, to re-establish some kind of Jewish 'kingdom' there, or just waves of settlement. Some have been out of necessity, when jews have been expelled en masse like under the Spanish Inquisition, or in 1290 from England. None as big as after WW2 of course, but that did have precedents. Some have been because of some self-proclaimed Messiah, like Sabbatai in the 17th century, whose followers travelled to the promised land only to be disappointed and disillusioned, and destitute and stranded.
None of this is meant to justify anything, but I guess I want to counter what I think is a widely-held misconception about 'zionism' among jews. It was always a minority interest, true, but that minority has always existed, and has even blossomed in Palestine before 1948. It's not just a racist 20th-century colonialist project, though this appears unfortunately to be its most recent blossoming. It's been better (or at least more peaceful) before.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
What gets me from the New Stateman article is this bit:
When all the politics and wilful misinformation are stripped away, Zionism is nothing more or less than the near 4,000-year-old expression of the Jewish People’s connection to, and right to self-determination in, the land situated at the very heart of Jewish faith and peoplehood.
Fundamentalists put Abraham as born around 1960 BC (in Ur, not in "Israel")
Given that Abraham is a mythical charactder, not clear to me how he maps onto Jerusalem/Israel.
This wikipedia article Twelve Tribes of Israel - Wikipedia contains an interesting paragraph:
Scholars such as Max Weber (in Ancient Judaism) and Ronald M. Glassman (2017) concluded that there never was a fixed number of tribes. Instead, the idea that there were always twelve tribes should be regarded as part of the Israelite national founding myth: the number 12 was not a real number, but an ideal number, which had symbolic significance in Near Eastern cultures with duodecimal counting systems, from which, among other things, the modern 12-hour clock is derived.[1
There is the intervening episode where the Israelites were apparently enslaved in Egpt. Rescued by Moses, who imposes the Torah.
The behaviour of Joshua, Moses' chosen successor, is though reminiscent of Prime Minister Netanyahu
Joshua's conquest of Jericho is clearly mythological - the sun stands still, the walls fall down but the nasty ending could be today:
Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house. 25 But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day.
26 At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: “Cursed before the Lord is the one who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho:
“At the cost of his firstborn son
he will lay its foundations;
at the cost of his youngest
he will set up its gates.”
27 So the Lord was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land. (from Joshua Chapter 6)
I think the Cheif Rabbi is telling us that his beleif in Zionism is not complicit with ethnic cleansing.
Yet the Bible/Torah is full of it.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Obviously you're right, there's a lot of bloodshed in the Bible. Those stories represent a people's founding story, from a bloody, violent age when every nation we still know about was writing its story in blood (or being bled to death and obscurity). IIRC Abraham's people were probably a semi-nomadic tribe of Amorites who settled the land between the Jordan river and the sea that was occupied by various other people, with this very neat concept of One God and a story the land belonged to them.
With violence no doubt, they made a country (is there any ancient people this isn't true of?) but they were caught between great empires, Hittite, Egyptian, Seleucid, I'm riffing off the top of my head and I'll link back to Amorites. But the point is that through all that turbulence, being conquered again and again, enslavement in Egypt then Babylon - of all the people who ever lived on that land, these people with this tradition (tradition matters way more than bloodline) kept their story, their language, their identity intact. The land itself and referring to it in prayer is for many people a part of that tradition, and has been for thousands of years.
But in all honesty, those people the ancient Hebrews were probably more sinned against than sinning.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I don't think that there is any evidence that the Ancient Israelites were enslaved in Egypt.
PTK
Paul Kegan
Look: it is generally agreed by scholars that the Exodus story is a myth. There is no physical evidence for it.
However, whether or not it is true has no bearing on present-day politics. It is deeply reactionary to base modern political claims on what may or may not have happened in Ancient times.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Don't know if you missed this but on Jews in the Ottoman Empire I posted about this Lebanon historian book on co existence in late Ottoman Empire.
Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
Point of book is that there is a lost history of co existence of Christians / Muslims and Jews. That there was a modernisation project in late Ottoman Empire that looked at this. In that historians view Zionism was an European political project that imposed itself and supplanted what had been happening in late Ottoman Empire. To the detriment of the middle east
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I didn't miss that. I was answering another poster's post, not yours
And you're right, there is a view. There are many views.
Well everyone needs to stop doing that, then! You should probably write a song about it or something.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
My main problem with Chief Rabbi line is his take on ancient history
Had Italian friend going on about Jews right to Palestine / Israel. I pointed out that logically means that an Italian could say my ancestors built London and we want it back.
I think Zionism is a modern political project.
I've read some of Palestine historian Nur Masalha work on present day Zionism.
He's also written on the ancient history of Palestine
Which I've not taken much notice of. As didn't think it was that important
Now see from Chief Rabbi defence of Zionism that it is.
TBF my eyes glaze over these arguments about Palestine/ Israel that appear to me as not rational.
I can understand British Empire supporting Zionism to help defend middle east for is own imperial needs.
Or Holocaust/ rise of Hitler meaning Jews leave Europe
But the rest of it no.
It's like watching recent settler being interviewed and them saying this is my land as I'm Jewish.
TBF the support of Israel by USA and my country now makes no sense to me on foreign policy angle. For my Foreign Minister David Lammy to say publicly he's a Zionist comes across to me as barking extreme.
I really don't see the relevance of Israel to this countries foreign policy needs.
If anything this countries support of Israel is more likely to piss off countries in the global south. Like SA
Had Italian friend going on about Jews right to Palestine / Israel. I pointed out that logically means that an Italian could say my ancestors built London and we want it back.
I think Zionism is a modern political project.
I've read some of Palestine historian Nur Masalha work on present day Zionism.
He's also written on the ancient history of Palestine
Which I've not taken much notice of. As didn't think it was that important
Now see from Chief Rabbi defence of Zionism that it is.
TBF my eyes glaze over these arguments about Palestine/ Israel that appear to me as not rational.
I can understand British Empire supporting Zionism to help defend middle east for is own imperial needs.
Or Holocaust/ rise of Hitler meaning Jews leave Europe
But the rest of it no.
It's like watching recent settler being interviewed and them saying this is my land as I'm Jewish.
TBF the support of Israel by USA and my country now makes no sense to me on foreign policy angle. For my Foreign Minister David Lammy to say publicly he's a Zionist comes across to me as barking extreme.
I really don't see the relevance of Israel to this countries foreign policy needs.
If anything this countries support of Israel is more likely to piss off countries in the global south. Like SA
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I take it the Chief Rabbi article in Guardian is meant to get people like me to buck up and support Israel.
Its like Jonathan Freedland in Guardian today telling what he calls World Opinion to care more about Israelis
www.theguardian.com
My problem with this is I going on the demo tomorrow. Knowing full well as someone who is part of World opinion that the real decision makers are going to ignore me.
So what in reality are Chief Rabbi and Freedland moaning about?
Everything is going there way.
The Rest of the world Freedland complains about are not the ones who decide what arms and support Israel gets.
USA red lines are repeatedly crossed and just moved. There isn't going to be a ceasefire as Netanyahu does not want one. Etc. Settlement building continues. All those UN countries who support ICJ ruling count as nothing in reality.
Its like Jonathan Freedland in Guardian today telling what he calls World Opinion to care more about Israelis
A brutal year and a tale of two Israels: the one that is feared and the one that is fearful | Jonathan Freedland
There is a yawning gap between how the world sees Israel and how Israelis see themselves. If only each could see through the other’s eyes, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland
My problem with this is I going on the demo tomorrow. Knowing full well as someone who is part of World opinion that the real decision makers are going to ignore me.
So what in reality are Chief Rabbi and Freedland moaning about?
Everything is going there way.
The Rest of the world Freedland complains about are not the ones who decide what arms and support Israel gets.
USA red lines are repeatedly crossed and just moved. There isn't going to be a ceasefire as Netanyahu does not want one. Etc. Settlement building continues. All those UN countries who support ICJ ruling count as nothing in reality.
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mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
This is both concise and readable. Not required reading, and older editions predate the modern state of Israel, but it gives a good account of how Judaism has lasted and migrated, and how the dream of restoring a kingdom in Palestine has come and gone through the ages.
It's very important IMO to separate the behaviour of this modern jewish state, from the mere fact of it existing at all. I'm certain a lot of readers here don't care to.
It's very important IMO to separate the behaviour of this modern jewish state, from the mere fact of it existing at all. I'm certain a lot of readers here don't care to.
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