Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[kebabking]

If you ask an Israeli should the state of Israel be dismantled they are almost certainly going to say no, but many Palestinians would say no as well tbh (especially pre October 7th). But if you said 'should the zionist system' be replaced with a more equal one, I suspect a lot more people would say yes, in practice that would mean many of the institutions of both Israel and Palestine being 'dismantled'. Not many people would like to think of an actual country being dismantled tbh. I don't think it's really an argument people should be making in order to convince anyone of anything

It's what matters to be edgy and, like, a proper ally man... on message boards, and that's what's important.

Israel isn't going to be dismantled anymore that Tonga is going to invade Mars via a bridge made of toilet rolls - it's just performative bollocks that makes the author look even more ridiculous than they do normally, except to others who also spout performative bollocks - and really, that's the audience, not the sane.

 

[frogwoman]

Well most of the people saying all Israelis should leave seem to be American tbh...and apart (maybe) from Israel itself, America is the country with the most responsibility for how things have got there

 

[kebabking]

...and apart (maybe) from Israel itself, America is the country with the most responsibility for how things have got there

To be fair, I think Germany should get a look in on that list.

We all know that that's why Israel gets a pass when others wouldn't. as time passes, and cultural/societal memories fade, that will change, but it's not going to be soon - atbh, anyone who doesn't either grasp that as a political reality, or doesn't immediately understand why that reality exists, isn't serious about politics.

 

[frogwoman]

To be fair, I think Germany should get a look in on that list.

We all know that that's why Israel gets a pass when others wouldn't. as time passes, and cultural/societal memories fade, that will change, but it's not going to be soon - atbh, anyone who doesn't either grasp that as a political reality, or doesn't immediately understand why that reality exists, isn't serious about politics.

Of course, I was making a point about who was saying they should leave and go back to wherever, which tends to be chronically online yanks. And tbh most countries bear some responsibility for historical persecution of Jews, defo in Europe. The blood libel originated in Norwich ffs

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's what matters to be edgy and, like, a proper ally man... on message boards, and that's what's important.

Israel isn't going to be dismantled anymore that Tonga is going to invade Mars via a bridge made of toilet rolls - it's just performative bollocks that makes the author look even more ridiculous than they do normally, except to others who also spout performative bollocks - and really, that's the audience, not the sane.

Apartheid South Africa was dismantled. The country is still called South Africa, and the same people live there as before, but the old state is gone. Its flags, its anthems, its assumption of white superiority, all history.

These things do change. Will Israel still be a racist state of the kind it is now in 100 years' time? Very doubtful. It will change. The only question is when that change will come.

And when it does come, change tends to come quickly and in a way that many didn't foresee. That was true with the fall of the communist block and with the fall of apartheid South Africa.

 

[Pickman's model]

I see the zionists have announced nasrallah's death

 

[teqniq]

I see the zionists have announced nasrallah's death

If they have, it will be likely something to do with this:



e2a:



I saw yesterday that his daughter had been killed in this strike but not him.

 

[frogwoman]

If they have, it will be likely something to do with this:

View attachment 444500

e2a:



I saw yesterday that his daughter had been killed in this strike but not him.

How is he allowed there if there is an ICC case against him? I know it's the US but I thought this was UN territory or something

 

[Pickman's model]

How is he allowed there if there is an ICC case against him? I know it's the US but I thought this was UN territory or something

They haven't issued an arrest warrant yet

 

[teqniq]

How is he allowed there if there is an ICC case against him? I know it's the US but I thought this was UN territory or something

I think it's called impunity.

Though to be fair Pickmans is right. No actual arrest warrant yet. They seem to be really dragging their feet over that, probably loads of pressure and lobbying going on in the background.

Interestingly when Netanyahu gave his speech at the UN, lots of delegates walked out:

 

[frogwoman]

They haven't issued an arrest warrant yet

But there's still an ongoing case right - he is just a suspect/person of interest rather than actually proved as guilty! I'm surprised the UN allowed him to visit in these circumstances

 

[Duncan2]

It would be nice if the ICC were to get on and determine whether or not to issue a warrant for Netanyahu's arrest.Thereafter a number of countries including ours would have to come off the fence one way or another.

 

[Pickman's model]

It would be nice if the ICC were to get on and determine whether or not to issue a warrant for Netanyahu's arrest.Thereafter a number of countries including ours would have to come off the fence one way or another.

Our government is not on the fence

 

[kebabking]

The 'is Nasrallah dead' thing has been all over the place in the last 24 hours - first the Israelis were briefing that they'd got him (to much scepticism..), then they went quiet, then Iranian media were saying that he wasn't there and was fine - and that they'd spoken to Hezbollah people who'd spoken to him - now they've gone quiet.

We'll see.

Without something else, I'd wait till you see a funeral.

 

[Duncan2]

Our government is not on the fence

No you are right .Except that when asked on TV what would be the situation if Netanyahu visited London given the pending arrest warrant Starmer refused to " speculate".

 

[frogwoman]

No you are right .Except that when asked on TV what would be the situation if Netanyahu visited London given the pending arrest warrant Starmer refused to " speculate".

surely he wouldn't let him visit London. Aside from anything else the security costs/risks would be massive at a time when we've allegedly got tighten our belts etc. Also it would upset relationships with much of the EU - even Macron is taking much more of a stance

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah re the ICC Arrest warrant there's speculation some of the judges may have been blackmailed or so Owen Jones said in one of his videos (I doubt that is a reliable source though, but its impossible to know one way or another). There was a guardian investigation that showed that the ICC had been hacked etc by Israeli groups so wouldn’t surprise me if something like that was happening .

 

[agricola]

How is he allowed there if there is an ICC case against him? I know it's the US but I thought this was UN territory or something

the US isn't a party to the ICC

 

[frogwoman]

the US isn't a party to the ICC

I thought that the UN buildings were officially UN territory though rather than US? Kind of like a country's embassy? Or have I got that wrong?

 

[kabbes]

Sadly, all I see is a powerless display of humanity

 

[teqniq]

Confirmed:

 

[bemused]

It's depressing that neither side is actually interested in stopping it, the important nations aren't going to stop it, and all the people in the region are suffering.

 

[MickiQ]

I thought that the UN buildings were officially UN territory though rather than US? Kind of like a country's embassy? Or have I got that wrong?

No you haven't

The site of the UN headquarters has extraterritoriality status.[130] This affects some law enforcement where UN rules override the laws of New York City, but it does not give immunity to those who commit crimes there. In addition, the United Nations headquarters remains under the jurisdiction and laws of the United States, although a few members of the UN staff have diplomatic immunity and so cannot be prosecuted by local courts unless the immunity is waived by the Secretary-General. In 2005, Secretary-General Kofi Annan waived the immunity of Benon Sevan, Aleksandr Yakovlev, and Vladimir Kuznetsov in relation to the Oil-for-Food Programme,[131] and all were charged in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York. Benon Sevan later fled the United States to Cyprus, while Aleksandr Yakovlev and Vladimir Kuznetsov decided to stand trial.[132]

United Nations Security officers are generally responsible for security within the UN Headquarters. They are equipped with weapons and handcuffs and are sometimes mistaken for New York City Police Department (NYPD) officers due to the agencies' similar uniforms.[133] The NYPD's 17th Precinct patrols the area around and near the complex, but may only formally enter the actual UN headquarters at the request of the Secretary-General.[134]

However it is of course surrounded entirely by the city of New York so it's impossible to get in or out without transiting via the US, when Yasser Arafat was invited to speak before the General Assembly it had to meet in Switzerland since he was not allowed to enter the US. There is no way that the UN is going to provoke the kind of confrontation with the US that arresting Netanyahu on US soil would do.

 

[PTK]

I don't know 100% where they stand but I suspect they wouldn't define themselves as anti zionist because they would favour a 2 state solution (maybe I am making assumptions about their views but I haven't talked about it in depth) whereas eg the BDS movement define themselves as anti zionist and favour a 1 state between Israel and Palestine.

But anti zionist in the sense of being against settlers (which are a huge part of zionism) and taking whatever land anyone feels like, and the general sense that Israel should be a country devoted to Jewish superiority?

Most of the population of the State of Israel withing the Green Line (the pre-1967 boundaries) are descended from setters, if not settlers themselves. Towns and villatge were built on what were Palestinian towns and villages, and renamed.

 

[PTK]

If you ask an Israeli should the state of Israel be dismantled they are almost certainly going to say no, but many Palestinians would say no as well tbh (especially pre October 7th). But if you said 'should the zionist system' be replaced with a more equal one, I suspect a lot more people would say yes, in practice that would mean many of the institutions of both Israel and Palestine being 'dismantled'. Not many people would like to think of an actual country being dismantled tbh. I don't think it's really an argument people should be making in order to convince anyone of anything

There is a difference between a "country" and a "state". The state called Rhodesia no longer exists, and was replaced by a state called Zimbabwe.

 

[tim]

How is he allowed there if there is an ICC case against him? I know it's the US but I thought this was UN territory or something

The USA does not recognise the ICC, neither does Russia.

 

[PTK]

It's what matters to be edgy and, like, a proper ally man... on message boards, and that's what's important.

Israel isn't going to be dismantled anymore that Tonga is going to invade Mars via a bridge made of toilet rolls - it's just performative bollocks that makes the author look even more ridiculous than they do normally, except to others who also spout performative bollocks - and really, that's the audience, not the sane.

I am trying to claify what is meant by the term "Zionist". If the term means someone who supports the existance of the State of Israel, then some many defined as anti-Zionist are actually Zionists. Most people who favour a two-state solution are Zionists. The term "anti-Zionist" is not useful, because its meaning is unclear.

 

[PTK]

It's depressing that neither side is actually interested in stopping it, the important nations aren't going to stop it, and all the people in the region are suffering.

Of course both sides want it to stop, but on their terms.

 

[maomao]

The USA does not recognise the ICC, neither dies Russia

Territories where the ICC is recognised:

 

[tim]

Most of the population of the State of Israel withing the Green Line (the pre-1967 boundaries) are descended from setters, if not settlers themselves. Towns and villatge were built on what were Palestinian towns and villages, and renamed.

Most of the population of Eastern Poland are settlers, most displaced from what is now Ukraine and Belarus. They won't be going back and the descendants of the Germans who the Polish state drove out won't be returning

Many Israeli settlers were also refugees from Central and Western Europe driven out by the Holocaust and its aftermath. Many others were refugees forced out of other places in MENA. Refugees from events that happened 80 years ago. There descendants will have identities based primarily on who they are now not on who their great-grandparents were. Israeli national identity is something that has emerged and exists not an ersatz Zionist fantasy and Israelis are not going anywhere, because like Palestinians they have nowhere to go, however much outsiders obsess about them all being "settlers".