Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Kevbad the Bad]

Jeremy Bowen interviewed some young Israelis who were of the opinion that Israel was "civilised" and the Palestinians were "barbaric". It was depressing to hear, but outside of urban I see that sentiment seems widespread.

Widespread but far from unanimous. We've had a weekly vigil in the square in Tavistock since last November, protesting UK involvement and calling for a ceasefire. Some limited vocal opposition. A handful of verbal confrontations, some of which turned out quite positive. Lots and lots of support, car toots in particular, but also unsolicited donations to Medical Aid for Palestinians. Given the uncritical coverage given to Israeli propaganda it is noticeable that, I would say, most people have not bought it.

 

[TopCat]

It's one of those situations where people feel free to act on their nastiest impulses.

I think those impulses are not natural and have to be encouraged and nurtured.

 

[teqniq]

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't imagine what the long term effects of going through this for a year now are

I think the Israeli attack was to break the Palestinians. For once and all to deal with the Palestinian problem.

A final solution as it were

 

[Cloo]

Being anonymous is the only way these spineless fuckers can get away with such vileness.

They left a phone number that seems to be real on the email, gsv has reported it to the police (malicious communication I guess) and they're actually taking it fairly seriously. He's also notified the synagogue because some messaging about, y'know, don't fucking harass people you disagree with wouldn't go amiss.

 

[agricola]

Widespread but far from unanimous. We've had a weekly vigil in the square in Tavistock since last November, protesting UK involvement and calling for a ceasefire. Some limited vocal opposition. A handful of verbal confrontations, some of which turned out quite positive. Lots and lots of support, car toots in particular, but also unsolicited donations to Medical Aid for Palestinians. Given the uncritical coverage given to Israeli propaganda it is noticeable that, I would say, most people have not bought it.

The vigil opposite the US Embassy in Nine Elms gets tooted by many passers by too. If a polling body ever asked “do you support what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza / the WB / Lebanon I rather think it should be 85-90% “no”.

 

[PTK]

The vigil opposite the US Embassy in Nine Elms gets tooted by many passers by too. If a polling body ever asked “do you support what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza / the WB / Lebanon I rather think it should be 85-90% “no”.

I attended the daily vigil against the US war in Vietnam in 1972 a number of times. You would think that, in this age of IT, I would be more in touch now, yet this is the first I have heard of the vigil to which you refer. Perhaps the fault lies in me, or perhaps I receive so many emails I do not read them all.

 

[teqniq]

Yet another murdered journalist in Northern Gaza which Israel is currently trying to completely ethnically cleanse:



In other news a Palestinian doctor is refusing to leave his hospital in Northern Gaza despite IDF demands that he does so stating that so long as there are patients there he won't be leaving:

As Israel Launches Massive Attack in Northern Gaza, Hospital Director Defies Israeli Evacuation Order

“As long as there are patients, I won't leave,” Dr. Hossam Abu Safia tells Drop Site News from Kamal Adwan Hospital.

www.dropsitenews.com

 

[Gramsci]

Americans online furious with billions sent to Israel while bracing hurricanes at home

Israel announced it received an additional $8.7bn from US the same day Hurricane Helene made landfall, killing over 230

www.middleeasteye.net

Ordinary Americans wonder why their politicians care more about Israel than them

Massive hurricane on the way and this is what politicians care about

"'But look what's going on in Israel' should become the official slogan for the American government."

Billions going to prop up Israel instead of supporting Americans

I wholeheartedly sympathise with these Americans

 

[teqniq]

Make that another dead journalist:



also:

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Just spoke to Medyan, his photojournalists & himself are broken.
The number of journalists killed over the past year is fuckin unprecedented. Over 200.

I’ll look very much forward to giving my friend a big hug next month if he returns to Brighton.

 

[agricola]

I attended the daily vigil against the US war in Vietnam in 1972 a number of times. You would think that, in this age of IT, I would be more in touch now, yet this is the first I have heard of the vigil to which you refer. Perhaps the fault lies in me, or perhaps I receive so many emails I do not read them all.

TBF I don’t think it’s been widely announced but they’ve been there for a couple of months, it’s around the old water tank (at least I think that is what it is) directly opposite the embassy if people know the area.

 

[Pickman's model]

I attended the daily vigil against the US war in Vietnam in 1972 a number of times. You would think that, in this age of IT, I would be more in touch now, yet this is the first I have heard of the vigil to which you refer. Perhaps the fault lies in me, or perhaps I receive so many emails I do not read them all.

IT was better in those days

E.g.

 

[Lotte]

People are being forced to leave their homes in the US, or trapped inside their homes, but sure, Israel's the one who needs the money.

 

[Gramsci]

IDF are ordering people to leave north Gaza. Also telling hospitals to go.

This looks to me like a case of ethnic cleansing. IDF trying to clear area.

Palestinians ordered to flee northern Gaza as Israel moves towards 'general's plan'

Palestinians say densely populated Jabalia refugee camp being ‘wiped out’ as Israeli soldiers are reportedly shooting at 'anyone who moves'

www.middleeasteye.net

The residents don't want to go. As its obvious there are no safe routes and no safe areas in Gaza.

In the video made by IDF they tell residents not to listen to Hamas.

After a year Hamas armed wing are still fighting and have not been defeated by the well armed IDF.

I'm trying to see if UK government has said anything about this.

The Generals plan was retired General advocating that residents of north Gaza be forced to leave. Whether that is official policy of government is not known. But looking at what is happening something similar to the Generals plan is being done.

 

[Gramsci]

Well what I have found is David Lammy recently saying full arms embargo Is wrong as Israel is under attack.

That diplomacy continues.

David Lammy: 'UK could not endorse a full arms embargo to Israel'

Foreign Secretary David Lammy says that while the UK did "suspend some arms in Gaza", he does not believe the UK should implement "a full arms embargo".

news.sky.com

Its Israel that is the aggressor here. Occupying Palestinian land and now clearly trying to ethnically cleanse north Gaza.

Imo whilst Israel is occupying Palestinian land it should get no arms/ no training of IDF/ no assistance of any sort from UK

 

[Gramsci]

From the Middle East Eye article on north Gaza,

“Once again, we see mounting catastrophic evidence that Israel looks like it may be committing the war crime of forced displacement,” Nadia Hardman, a researcher at Human Rights Watch, told MEE.

“We’ve seen repeatedly that evacuation orders have put people in harm’s way, and that evacuation areas are in fact not safe and people don’t know where to go,” she added.

 

[teqniq]

IDF are ordering people to leave north Gaza. Also telling hospitals to go.

This looks to me like a case of ethnic cleansing. IDF trying to clear area.

Palestinians ordered to flee northern Gaza as Israel moves towards 'general's plan'

Palestinians say densely populated Jabalia refugee camp being ‘wiped out’ as Israeli soldiers are reportedly shooting at 'anyone who moves'

www.middleeasteye.net

The residents don't want to go. As its obvious there are no safe routes and no safe areas in Gaza.

In the video made by IDF they tell residents not to listen to Hamas.

After a year Hamas armed wing are still fighting and have not been defeated by the well armed IDF.

I'm trying to see if UK government has said anything about this.

The Generals plan was retired General advocating that residents of north Gaza be forced to leave. Whether that is official policy of government is not known. But looking at what is happening something similar to the Generals plan is being done.

The 'controversial' general's plan seems to have become de facto official IDF policy:

Palestinians ordered to flee northern Gaza as Israel moves towards 'general's plan'

Palestinians say densely populated Jabalia refugee camp being ‘wiped out’ as Israeli soldiers are reportedly shooting at 'anyone who moves'

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[yield]

The only moral thing Palestinian civilians can do, apparently, is to die. The only legal thing the rest of us can do is to watch them die. And be silent. If not, we risk our scholarships, grants, lecture fees, and livelihoods.

- Arundhati Roy at a ceremony held in Thiruvananthapuram, in the Indian state of Kerala, on Dec. 13, 2023, where she accepted the P. Govinda Pillai award.

 

[Gramsci]

The 'controversial' general's plan seems to have become de facto official IDF policy:

Palestinians ordered to flee northern Gaza as Israel moves towards 'general's plan'

Palestinians say densely populated Jabalia refugee camp being ‘wiped out’ as Israeli soldiers are reportedly shooting at 'anyone who moves'

www.middleeasteye.net

The General ( retired) said his plan is compliant with international law.

“We have to tell the residents of north Gaza that they have one week to evacuate the territory, which then becomes a military zone; [a zone] in which every figure is a target and, most importantly, no supplies enter this territory. A siege is not only an effective military tactic; it is also compliant with international law. What matters to Sinwar is land and dignity, and with this maneuver, you take away both land and dignity,” Eiland explained at the time.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-tells-lawmakers-hes-considering-generals-plan-to-lay-siege-to-northern-gaza/

One thing about Israel state is that it will argue its case if action is brought against it.

So far what the IDF have done is tell people to leave. They haven't actually said officially if they don't they will be starved or treated as combatants.

But yes Id agree de facto they are carrying out similar plan

 

[agricola]

The General ( retired) said his plan is compliant with international law.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-tells-lawmakers-hes-considering-generals-plan-to-lay-siege-to-northern-gaza/

One thing about Israel state is that it will argue its case if action is brought against it.

So far what the IDF have done is tell people to leave. They haven't actually said officially if they don't they will be starved or treated as combatants.

But yes Id agree de facto they are carrying out similar plan

The plan is pretty clearly not compliant with international law.

 

[Gramsci]

The thinking mans online Zionist magazine has article by retired General Eiland.

Opinion | ‘A new turning point in the history of the State of Israel. Most people don’t understand that’

In a briefing, Maj. Gen. (ret.) Giora Eiland, former head of the Israeli National Security Council, Strategic Planning Branch of the IDF, emphasises the existential importance of Hamas being militaril...

fathomjournal.org

Owen Jones quoted from it on is YouTube channel.

Makes interesting reading.

He's all for cutting off energy and water. As a start.

His argument is that Hamas are the Nazis and allies killed a lot of civilians to kill Hitler and defeat Japanese.

He argues that Hamas were elected so the Palestinians in Gaza are also culpable.

have to be accountable for decisions that they make (such as in Germany)

He undercuts this by saying he is not out for revenge:

Israel should not allow any economic assistance. The people should be told that they have two choices; to stay and to starve, or to leave. If Egypt and other countries prefer that these people will perish in Gaza, this is their choice. I prefer something that is more reasonable

Again, this is not about retaliation or revenge. This is a calculated professional analysis of the situation ....... This is the more humanitarian approach compared to other scenarios.

Fathom publish this as serious contribution as what is to be done about Gaza.

Its interesting insight into how mind of an Israeli works.

I don't think this plan is compliant with how a democracy should behave. He argues in effect that in extreme circumstances a democratic country that sees itself as upholding civilized values can put them into abeyance when attacked.

He tries to argue that this is professional.

But reading between the lines this is revenge and he is blaming the Palestinian civilian population as a whole.

From what I can see this article is quite old.

What has happened since he wrote it is that some of it has happened. More piecemeal. I think he wants something done quickly to save IDF lives.

 

[agricola]

Oh look, another public request from the US to tone it down a bit has been followed by another unjustifiable massacre:

PRCS says 28 killed in Israeli school strike

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[HeAthen]

Oh look, another public request from the US to tone it down a bit has been followed by another unjustifiable massacre:

PRCS says 28 killed in Israeli school strike

www.middleeasteye.net

It's almost like they don't give a shit!

 

[Gramsci]

Starmer could at least be both sides on this.

His one year anniversary message is all about Israel.

 

[Whagwan]

He doesn't actually mention Israel once.

And there I was thinking the IHRC examples stated it was antisemitic to conflate Judaism with Israel.

 

[Idris2002]

Apparenlty the IDF is now firing on UNIFIL peacekeepers in "the Leb".

What the tactical or strategic angle might be is unclear to me. Making sure there are no witnesses? Or just frustrated that they can't get more than a few miles over the border before Hezb. give them a taste of their own medicine?

I use to think they were an army of Private Pikes, but that's actually an insult to Pike.

 

[Ax^]

He doesn't actually mention Israel once.

And there I was thinking the IHRC examples stated it was antisemitic to conflate Judaism with Israel.

hmm was it not the other way around

 

[Bingoman]

Apparenlty the IDF is now firing on UNIFIL peacekeepers in "the Leb".

What the tactical or strategic angle might be is unclear to me. Making sure there are no witnesses? Or just frustrated that they can't get more than a few miles over the border before Hezb. give them a taste of their own medicine?

I use to think they were an army of Private Pikes, but that's actually an insult to Pike.

Clearly they no longer care

 

[Idris2002]

There's a clip doing the rounds on Twitter right now of a Polish MEP denouncing the war on Gaza and Lebanon - thing is, this guy is very much one of the bad guys, an antisemite of the old school.