Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[barlimo]

Your previous post ("Not surprising as both Labour and Conservative parties are funded by Jews.") suggests that you are definitely antisemitic. I'll add my name to fuck off with that shit.

I should have added that a number of groups lobby the government, politicians and political parties on behalf of Israel. Many politicians express their support through national political party "Friends of Israel" groups. Israel is definitely well in over here not so are the Palestinians.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

As a recipient of that accusation and still requiring evidence from the people that accused me.
Being against the actions of the IOF bullies does not make one anti Semitic, particularly when, the thing that has you aghast is the systematic murder of a civilian population born on the land that is being stolen. The very definition of anti semitism.

 

[barlimo]

Well if you're anti Israel you must of coarse be anti Semitic - so say the Israelis and their friends. It's their great ploy for avoiding all criticism of their actions.

 

[freshapple]

Is it Victor Klemperer book? Was looking this up to see if I could find anything. I have not heard of him before.

He did diaries, was brother of the pianist I believe.

 

[Gramsci]

I would genuinely (I mean this) like to know why you think this. Why is this thread "most encouraging" to anti-semites?

It differs from what I'm seeing. Help me out.

What I see are 12300 posts largely, massively largely, from people who either want to inform about the history (I like your posts on this aspect certainly) or who, like me, rail against injustice, particularly when it tips over into genocide. I see people leading the calls for a ceasefire and to stop arming Israel, something mainstream politicians have only just now started to catch up on.

Of course, in a crowd, you are bound to get the odd idiot shouting shit. On this thread I see them jumped on. How is this welcoming to eg Barlimo, who has been told in no uncertain terms to fuck off by more than one person? Which is what happens every time some idiot shouts 'the Jews'.

"Most encouraging" to anti-semites? I checked, quickly, the top 30 posters. They are responsible for over 2/3 of the posts here. If what you are saying is right, then maybe you can pick out some of those posters who encourage anti-semitism?

It's a genuine question Mojo. I'm quite prepared to listen to where I'm going wrong. It's just that as it stands, labelling the thread as encouraging to anti-semitism to me is a bit insulting to those informed posters, or those outraged posters, who post in good faith and without anti-semitism. And they look like the vast majority to me.

mojo pixy has posted some of my posts verge on anti Semitic. That's up to them what they think. Goes with the territory of discussing Palestine/ Israel.

If I get Mojo right they want a two state solution. With settlements withdrawal in West Bank. And that land being given back to Palestinians. A genuine two state.

( To add this is not what has actually been on offer. I can see Mojo idea of a two state solution as different to what has been happening.)

And those who believe/suggest a One State solution denying Jewish people right to their ( now existing state). That some kind of solution needs ot be found that allows a Jewish/ Zionist State to continue. I take this as a kind post Zionist view. Refusing this is borderline anti Semitic in that view

I'm guessing here but think Mojo does not think there is a strict easy line to divide anti semitism and non anti semitism. Its more of a continuum.

I don't agree with Mojo on a lot but they have done some good posts here. And do have actual experience of living in Israel.

 

[hash tag]

We live in a free country and are entitled to our opinions I guess. I would ban arms sales to other countries.

Banning arms sales to Israel would be ‘insane’, says Boris Johnson

Former prime minister says a western arms embargo on Israel would ‘hand victory’ to Hamas

www.theguardian.com

 

[mojo pixy]

I would genuinely (I mean this) like to know why you think this. Why is this thread "most encouraging" to anti-semites?

It differs from what I'm seeing. Help me out.

What I see are 12300 posts largely, massively largely, from people who either want to inform about the history (I like your posts on this aspect certainly) or who, like me, rail against injustice, particularly when it tips over into genocide. I see people leading the calls for a ceasefire and to stop arming Israel, something mainstream politicians have only just now started to catch up on.

Of course, in a crowd, you are bound to get the odd idiot shouting shit. On this thread I see them jumped on. How is this welcoming to eg Barlimo, who has been told in no uncertain terms to fuck off by more than one person? Which is what happens every time some idiot shouts 'the Jews'.

"Most encouraging" to anti-semites? I checked, quickly, the top 30 posters. They are responsible for over 2/3 of the posts here. If what you are saying is right, then maybe you can pick out some of those posters who encourage anti-semitism?

It's a genuine question Mojo. I'm quite prepared to listen to where I'm going wrong. It's just that as it stands, labelling the thread as encouraging to anti-semitism to me is a bit insulting to those informed posters, or those outraged posters, who post in good faith and without anti-semitism. And they look like the vast majority to me.

This is true, but when the odd idiot shouts shit the pushback hasn't been especially vocal (it's mostly been me pushing back since the start of the thread, actually) That's OK, but it hasn't been just the odd idiot. We've had complaints about antisemitism even being discussed, we've had acres of arguments that Israel ought to stop being a jewish state if it wants a future, when I've argued that settler states ought all to be judged by the same standards found myself suddenly up against half a dozen posters. I've found it so tiring I'm taking weeks off at a time, I'm not even arguing with barlimo 's nonsense because that's all it fucking is.

The thread has indeed mostly been informative and sensitively presented, and I remain disgusted and horrified by current events and Netanyahu's mob's behaviour and trajectory for years. But there are IMO reasonable, intelligent posters here who have argued and would argue and will argue that israel per se is somehow uniquely bad, and needs to stop being jewish if it wants to survive. This is the kind of stuff that encourages the barlimos of the world.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think you need to call out people directly when you think something is anti-semitic instead of vague and broad insinuations. It isn't helpful.

No not really because I'm not interested in labelling people as antisemites. I have pointed out arguments I consider antisemitic. I'm not interested in retreading it again and again but yeah, opinions and positions, not people. People are complicated and contradictory and hard to sum up in one word.

 

[krtek a houby]

Well if you're anti Israel you must of coarse be anti Semitic - so say the Israelis and their friends. It's their great ploy for avoiding all criticism of their actions.

There's a significant difference between critical of Israel governments, their domestic policy, the IDF ... and singling out Jewish people.

The latter is what you have done in several posts. There's little doubt that you are an antisemite.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

But there are IMO reasonable, intelligent posters here who have argued and would argue and will argue that israel per se is somehow uniquely bad

I have seen this criticism expressed by others - if you seem uniquely obsessed with Israel, and aren't criticising all other horrible regimes, then you must be an anti-semite... Fact of the matter is, we're probably more aware of what's going on there due to shared European history and what is presented to us on the news. The UK government is also an ally of Israel, will often vote for Israel interests and against Palestinian interests when it comes to the UN, and supplies Israel with weapons. These are things as voters we have a say in. And I'm pretty sure those of us who want the UK to stop selling weapons Israel also want the UK to stop selling weapons to the likes of Saudi Arabia, and will have expressed this publicly.

 

[emanymton]

We live in a free country and are entitled to our opinions I guess. I would ban arms sales to other countries.

Banning arms sales to Israel would be ‘insane’, says Boris Johnson

Former prime minister says a western arms embargo on Israel would ‘hand victory’ to Hamas

www.theguardian.com

Not exactly a central point - but fuck he looks rough in that picture.

 

[barlimo]

There's a significant difference between critical of Israel governments, their domestic policy, the IDF ... and singling out Jewish people.

The latter is what you have done in several posts. There's little doubt that you are an antisemite.

I can't recollect ever criticising Jews in general. The problem is people like you stop all constructive thought about Israel with your usual anti Semite name calling bullshit.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Hmmm

 

[mojo pixy]

I have seen this criticism expressed by others - if you seem uniquely obsessed with Israel, and aren't criticising all other horrible regimes, then you must be an anti-semite... Fact of the matter is, we're probably more aware of what's going on there due to shared European history and what is presented to us on the news. The UK government is also an ally of Israel, will often vote for Israel interests and against Palestinian interests when it comes to the UN, and supplies Israel with weapons. These are things as voters we have a say in. And I'm pretty sure those of us who want the UK to stop selling weapons Israel also want the UK to stop selling weapons to the likes of Saudi Arabia, and will have expressed this publicly.

I wouldn't say this, but I have observed that Israel often attracts more or wider opprobrium (from the left, at least) than other countries for really quite similar behaviour. I think (and I've said this before) that this is mainly because of the 'holy land' nature of the place and its prominence in the jewish / christian / muslim history and identity that underlies half of the world's cultures, it gives this particular conflict more emotional weight (even for unreligious people) and of course attracts more attention. I personally do not assume someone's focus on this particular matter stems from a conscious or unconscious distrust of jews. But it has been known to happen and can unexpectedly turn out to be the case.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

But it has been known to happen and can unexpectedly turn out to be the case.

Or not.

 

[hitmouse]

As a recipient of that accusation and still requiring evidence from the people that accused me.

Fwiw, your post on this thread that I remember as being antisemitic was this:

Serious question. Why were the Jews expelled from Palestine in the first place, according to the books our societies were structured around?

Because it seeks to explicitly tie the modern state of Israel, which was created less than a century ago, to some sort of eternal Jewish essence running throughout history. The only people who would make that claim are either Zionists or antisemites.

I can't recollect ever criticising Jews in general. The problem is people like you stop all constructive thought about Israel with your usual anti Semite name calling bullshit.

If you go and have a look at what you posted the other day, what you said was:

Not surprising as both Labour and Conservative parties are funded by Jews.

If you'd said "funded by supporters of Zionism", we could have a discussion about that (fwiw, I still think it's a bit too simplistic and not an adequate explanation), but you didn't, you just said Jews. There's quite an important distinction there.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't think anyone here who has put forward idea of a one state solution , which is the ending of a Zionist state, is calling for Israelis who are Jewish to be deported.

One State solution is not the only one. But keep remembering Eyal Weissmann saying in Hollow Lands- whether one state or two state solution the structure that has been built up needs to be dismantled. That as an architect he sees the oppression is built into how Israel and the occupied terrorists have been developed. He's saying that as someone born and brought up in Haifa

There is a difference between calling for a different kind of state and calling for the destruction of Israel.

Before this all kicked off I was reading more about the history of British Empire. Palestine is major part of last years of Empire.

This country has historical legacy re Palestine/ Israel.

In present it has bilateral arrangements agreement with Israel that are contentious. Not purely about trade. Also saying UK government is against BDS. Which it is making legislation against. That referring Israel to ICJ over I think when asked for legal opinion on the occupation is "inappropriate " and that the modern form of anti semitism is the "de-legitimisation" of the State of Israel.

2030 roadmap for UK-Israel bilateral relations

www.gov.uk

This country has a seat at UN. Which it uses to often abstain when its to do with Israel.

All in , with this countries history of meddling in middle East and present positions on Israel as a concerned citizen its imo completely valid to read up more on this and have an opinion. And entitled to put pressure on elected politician to change policy.

 

[barlimo]

Fwiw, your post on this thread that I remember as being antisemitic was this:

Because it seeks to explicitly tie the modern state of Israel, which was created less than a century ago, to some sort of eternal Jewish essence running throughout history. The only people who would make that claim are either Zionists or antisemites.

If you go and have a look at what you posted the other day, what you said was:

If you'd said "funded by supporters of Zionism", we could have a discussion about that (fwiw, I still think it's a bit too simplistic and not an adequate explanation), but you didn't, you just said Jews. There's quite an important distinction there.

 

[barlimo]

It's come to the state where the word Jews appears to mean every Jew in existence. Merely saying it implies you are anti Semitic.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

 

[Pickman's model]

It's come to the state where the word Jews appears to mean every Jew in existence. Merely saying it implies you are anti Semitic.

You are anti-semitic

 

[hitmouse]

It's come to the state where the word Jews appears to mean every Jew in existence. Merely saying it implies you are anti Semitic.

Is this your first time using nouns?

 

[krtek a houby]

It's come to the state where the word Jews appears to mean every Jew in existence. Merely saying it implies you are anti Semitic.

This is blatant antisemitism:

Jewish wife and relatives! So wonder what that cunt of a prime minister's excuse is.

The Holocausts is Israel's get out of jail card' they use it to justify just about any anything. I'm so sick of hearing about it that I have Holocaust fatigue. BTW 27 million Russians died in WW2 but I never hear them moaning about it.

Not surprising as both Labour and Conservative parties are funded by Jews.

 

[krtek a houby]

Grudging respect for the otherwise awful FG

Harris tells Israeli PM that Ireland is repulsed by his actions

Mr Harris said that Ireland stands ready to recognise the Palestinian state while calling for a two-state solution

www.irishexaminer.com

 

[teqniq]

What it says on the tin. Plus lot of commentary from analysts:

What Is Hamas Thinking Now?

HuffPost obtained rare interviews with Hamas leaders Mousa Abu Marzouk and Basem Naim, pressing them six months since Oct. 7 on the group's attacks on civilians and its vision for the future of Israel-Palestine.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

 

[brogdale]

Here we go again; 'government' figure promotes idea that it is antisemitic to question Israel's genocidal attack on the Palestinians of Gaza.

 

[planetgeli]

"Incredibly high standards"

Twat. I don't relish railing against war and injustice. It's even gone way beyond wanting BN gone. It's about asymmetrical war, 30,000 deaths mostly of women and children. Over 200 aid workers. More journalists killed than in any other war. Cities flattened to utter destruction.

There is no relish in wanting that to stop.

 

[Gramsci]

Here we go again; 'government' figure promotes idea that it is antisemitic to question Israel's genocidal attack on the Palestinians of Gaza.

View attachment 418950

It might have been good if Sky News asked Dowden what are in practical terms the standards Israel should be held to. And ask Dowden the difference between high standards and "incredibly" high standards.

And what would his government do if the robust conversations does not lead to the high standards from Israel. As he says Israel does not have a carte blanche.

 

[teqniq]

It might have been good if Sky News asked Dowden what are in practical terms the standards Israel should be held to. And ask Dowden the difference between high standards and "incredibly" high standards.

And what would his government do if the robust conversations does not lead to the high standards from Israel. As he says Israel does not have a carte blanche.

This Sky news?

 

[agricola]

It might have been good if Sky News asked Dowden what are in practical terms the standards Israel should be held to. And ask Dowden the difference between high standards and "incredibly" high standards.

And what would his government do if the robust conversations does not lead to the high standards from Israel. As he says Israel does not have a carte blanche.

I'd imagine we would just have gotten the same old existential fight... the RAF did the same sort of thing in Dresden, Hamburg etc... they are a liberal democracy and close ally speech.