Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[scalyboy]

This is what I've also been really worrying about. Withdrawal of troops in order to keep the IDF safe whilst at the same time loading up for a massive air strike on Rafah.
I do not believe Netanyahu is just going to pull back.

Alternatively, could the troop withdrawal be the result of worldwide condemnation and warnings by the USA, Germany and Italy (apparently the top three suppliers of weaponry to Israel) that an IDF ground attack on Rafah would be the last straw?

Can Netanyahu be confident that he / the IDF can do whatever the fuck they want with no repercussions - as in withdrawal of US and / or European support?

Thinking of another conflict, Northern Ireland, it’s now emerged that secret talks and diplomatic back-channels were going on for years without the general public’s knowledge, and rightly so IMHO.

Was it reported at the time that in 1972, Ivor Bell. Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams, Seamus Twomey & Sean McStiofan were flown to London and invited to discuss a possible ceasefire with Willy Whitelaw over tea & biscuits at Cheyne Walk? I believe this only became public knowledge after the 30-year secrecy period had elapsed.

If for example it was public knowledge that Biden had threatened to reduce US aid to Israel, there would be uproar in the USA and it might well mean Biden losing the forthcoming election…so it wouldn’t be in his interests for this to be known.

What I’m trying to say is that we don’t know what’s been said and continues to be said behind closed doors…

One odd example might be what me & andysays briefly mentioned earlier - Egypt constructing a structure of some form on their side of the border with Gaza… this would be big news, so why has it disappeared down the memory hole? Why no more news reports on what could be a significant development?

I admit the above is me trying to be optimistic without much evidence for it

… but the worldwide outrage and condemnation of Israel’s actions this time round seems to me to be greater than previously. The ICJ ruling on genocide was important in this respect, I believe.

 

[scalyboy]

I remember that being mentioned and briefly discussed on here a few weeks ago, but not seen anything recently.

I’m glad you remember this too; I had wondered if I’d imagined it, as it appears to have disappeared from news reports entirely

 

[teqniq]

Alternatively, could the troop withdrawal be the result of worldwide condemnation and warnings by the USA, Germany and Italy (apparently the top three suppliers of weaponry to Israel) that an IDF ground attack on Rafah would be the last straw?

Can Netanyahu be confident that he / the IDF can do whatever the fuck they want with no repercussions - as in withdrawal of US and / or European support?

Thinking of another conflict, Northern Ireland, it’s now emerged that secret talks and diplomatic back-channels were going on for years without the general public’s knowledge, and rightly so IMHO.

Was it reported at the time that in 1972, Ivor Bell. Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams, Seamus Twomey & Sean McStiofan were flown to London and invited to discuss a possible ceasefire with Willy Whitelaw over tea & biscuits at Cheyne Walk? I believe this only became public knowledge after the 30-year secrecy period had elapsed.

If for example it was public knowledge that Biden had threatened to reduce US aid to Israel, there would be uproar in the USA and it might well mean Biden losing the forthcoming election…so it wouldn’t be in his interests for this to be known.

What I’m trying to say is that we don’t know what’s been said and continues to be said behind closed doors…

One odd example might be what me & andysays briefly mentioned earlier - Egypt constructing a structure of some form on their side of the border with Gaza… this would be big news, so why has it disappeared down the memory hole? Why no more news reports on what could be a significant development?

I admit the above is me trying to be optimistic without much evidence for it

… but the worldwide outrage and condemnation of Israel’s actions this time round seems to me to be greater than previously. The ICJ ruling on genocide was important in this respect, I believe.

I’m glad you remember this too; I had wondered if I’d imagined it, as it appears to have disappeared from news reports entirely

Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-786342 Ben Gvir... shoot women & children in the head.. ICC... wake up.

www.urban75.net

 

[krtek a houby]

Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-786342 Ben Gvir... shoot women & children in the head.. ICC... wake up.

www.urban75.net

Did you mean to include the quote from Sas?

 

[teqniq]

Did you mean to include the quote from Sas?

I can't see that? Just my post. Weird.

 

[teqniq]

I can't see that? Just my post. Weird.

Oh sorry, I see. Fixed.

 

[krtek a houby]

I can't see that? Just my post. Weird.

First quote on the post.

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't see that? Just my post. Weird.

No, you're def quoting sas

 

[scalyboy]

https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...wi/status/1757836784866676817']Source[/QUOTE]

Translated from:

conflict-news-and-discussion.382902/post-18489039[/URL]

Yes ! it may well have been this - your post on 14 Feb with the Sinai For Human Rights Twitter msg - was how I’d first heard about it…but has there been any further news?
Just seems strange to me that a potentially significant story isn’t being reported more, at least not in UK news media.
I’ll have a look on Al Jazeera and Haaretz to see if they’ve covered it at all

 

[teqniq]

Yes ! it may well have been this - your post on 14 Feb with the Sinai For Human Rights Twitter msg - was how I’d first heard about it…but has there been any further news?
Just seems strange to me that a potentially significant story isn’t being reported more, at least not in UK news media.
I’ll have a look on Al Jazeera and Haaretz to see if they’ve covered it at all

a Twitter search yields numerous references one of which is this article on a site I have not come across before but all in all it still seems to be a fair amount of speculation.

 

[mojo pixy]

Anti Zionism is not anti Semitic.

It v.much depends on who's promoting it, and how they're doing that.

Also, in Israel anti-zionism is a very very minority position. Anti-zionists tend to leave or get ejected. We might wish this were different, I certainly do - but it isn't, and that's why a two-state solution has always seemed to me like the more workable short-term solution. In any case anyone who thinks Israel is going to allow itself to be told what to be, is deluding themselves. It'll fight to the death IMO to define itself (that is to say many or even most of its people will fight to the death to be the ones who get to define it). Actually we might argue that's a considerable mass of the problem.

Anyway I'm not after a row, just signposting this perspective because its something that isn't going away. Also you're definitely the most informative poster on the thread (if not the most prolific) so far, so keep on keeping on.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The US is holding the line that they 'don't have evidence of genocide'. Defence secretary Lloyd Austin speaking today.

One or two posters in the past have been keen on using this image for similar circumstances. Such posters are conspicuous by their absence on this thread nowadays.

 

[Pickman's model]

The US is holding the line that they 'don't have evidence of genocide'. Defence secretary Lloyd Austin speaking today.

One or two posters in the past have been keen on using this image for similar circumstances. Such posters are conspicuous by their absence on this thread nowadays.

It's really weird that they can see all sorts of things when they want to but evidence of genocide clearly stated in both zionist words and actions receives a nelsonian eye

 

[agricola]

It's really weird that they can see all sorts of things when they want to but evidence of genocide clearly stated in both zionist words and actions receives a nelsonian eye

I would imagine there is a fairly high degree of sophistry involved - ie: we don't have evidence of genocide, because the voluminous evidence of genocide was presented by South Africa to the ICC.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would imagine there is a fairly high degree of sophistry involved - ie: we don't have evidence of genocide, because the voluminous evidence of genocide was presented by South Africa to the ICC.

I wish I could share your confidence

 

[Gramsci]

Israel has long wanted Palestinians out of Gaza – my father saw it firsthand | Raja Shehadeh

Decades after the 1967 war, Israel is still under the illusion that violence against the Palestinians will give it peace and security, says Raja Shehadeh, a Palestinian lawyer and writer

www.theguardian.com

Raja Shehadeh , a lawyer and human rights activist, writes for Guardian. Looking up his older articles found this. Recounts some of the history of the occupation of Gaza.

Initially under Labour Zionism. Not the right or far right in Israel.

They made it clear they wanted Palestinians out. But with the world watching this time could not expell them. So answer was to make life so difficult they would emigrate. This was done under Israeli leadership of Golda Meir

In 1967, Israeli policymakers were adamant about keeping the occupied Gaza Strip. As early as 8 June 1967, Golda Meir, the then secretary general of ruling party Mapai, stated in a meeting of the party’s political committee that she was for “getting rid of its Arabs”.

Some did emigrate. But not enough. A later leader of Israel ( another Labour party leader) said:

In the end, none of these strategies brought about significant results, leading Eshkol to lament, “I still don’t know how to get rid of them.”

Seems to me over the history of Zionism, whether left of right kind, the preferred option would be that Palestinians just go. How to get to that whether gradually by making life difficult or by force is the cause of differences within Zionism. But a Palestine without Palestinians is the ideal. It might not be able to be achieved but the underlying wish for it is always in background in Zionism.

And the more sensible Zionists realise they have to keep international support of major powers like USA. Or in past Britain. Without international support it would be hard to sustain.

 

[PTK]

Alternatively, could the troop withdrawal be the result of worldwide condemnation and warnings by the USA, Germany and Italy (apparently the top three suppliers of weaponry to Israel) that an IDF ground attack on Rafah would be the last straw?

Was it reported at the time that in 1972, Ivor Bell. Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams, Seamus Twomey & Sean McStiofan were flown to London and invited to discuss a possible ceasefire with Willy Whitelaw over tea & biscuits at Cheyne Walk?

It was reported at the time.
[EDIT] This is a link to the report of the announcement of the talks in the House of Commons.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1972-07-10/debates/e858cdbf-b874-4aed-99a3-39f164377f11/NorthernIreland

 

[ska invita]

Israel faces uncertain economic future after six months of war

Financial rating agencies say the continuation of the war has led to a negative economic outlook

www.middleeasteye.net

Let's see how they survive without exploited Palestinian labour

 

[ska invita]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/loss-palestinian-workers-israeli-building-sites-leaves-hole-both-sides-2024-03-21/

More on that theme

The missing workers are among some 200,000 Palestinians who used to commute daily from the West Bank, as well as 18,500 from Gaza, all now locked out of Israel since the start of the Gaza war over security concerns, leaving an economic hole on both sides of the border

 

[agricola]

According to the Times of Israel, the IDF today has killed three of Haniyeh's sons and "several" of his grandchildren during a bombing in Gaza - whilst ceasefire negotiations are still taking place.

I really hope this causes the scales to finally fall from the eyes of Biden, Sunak and the rest about what they are supporting - even their recent mealy-mouthed exchanges about ceasefires being needed are clearly being ignored.

 

[Pickman's model]

According to the Times of Israel, the IDF today has killed three of Haniyeh's sons and "several" of his grandchildren during a bombing in Gaza - whilst ceasefire negotiations are still taking place.

I really hope this causes the scales to finally fall from the eyes of Biden, Sunak and the rest about what they are supporting - even their recent mealy-mouthed exchanges about ceasefires being needed are clearly being ignored.

They are ever more post-heroic

 

[Benjamin F]

Israel faces uncertain economic future after six months of war

Financial rating agencies say the continuation of the war has led to a negative economic outlook

www.middleeasteye.net

Let's see how they survive without exploited Palestinian labour

Israel has deliberately cut its reliance on Palestinian labour for over 20 years. What has been going on is now about exclusion (and annihilation) rather than exploitation. Israel imports a lot of 'temporary' ('guest') workers over a 100,000 legally (and quite a few overstayers) - many from India, but in the past quite a lot from Eastern Europe. The legal ones face all sorts of exploitation and foul treatment, the over-stayers even worse (see recent reports in Ha'Aretz). A standard trick, especially, but not exclusively, in the building trade (and there has been a building boom) is to allow them to overstay, and then when they are due to be paid, report them to the authorities so they can be deported without their pay. Rinse and repeat.

 

[teqniq]

This should come as very little surprise to anyone:

History tells Sunak and Cameron they can safely ignore the ICJ

Will Britain heed the warning it could be found complicit in the Gaza genocide and take action? Its record in Rwanda, Bosnia and Myanmar suggests the answer will be no

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

 

[Pickman's model]

What does this add to what we've already said about the murders?

 

[teqniq]

Hamas leader's sons and grandchildren murdered:

 

[Gramsci]

Israel has deliberately cut its reliance on Palestinian labour for over 20 years. What has been going on is now about exclusion (and annihilation) rather than exploitation. Israel imports a lot of 'temporary' ('guest') workers over a 100,000 legally (and quite a few overstayers) - many from India, but in the past quite a lot from Eastern Europe. The legal ones face all sorts of exploitation and foul treatment, the over-stayers even worse (see recent reports in Ha'Aretz). A standard trick, especially, but not exclusively, in the building trade (and there has been a building boom) is to allow them to overstay, and then when they are due to be paid, report them to the authorities so they can be deported without their pay. Rinse and repeat.

The deliberate cut started when Palestinians started the second Intifada.

Punishment for rebelling and way to undermine Palestinians. The justification by Israel was security reasons.

And Palestinians withdrawing labour as protest was undermined by looking elsewhere for a cheap labour force.

Also the way that the Zionist state did land grabs in West Bank and settlement building deprived some Palestinians of being able to earn a living working on the land. So forced to work as cheap labour for Israel.

In Hollow Lands Eyal Weissmann recounts how when the "Separation Wall" in West Bank was being built one settlement requested it be moved to go around a local Palestinian village as this is where all the maids and cleaners for them lived. So they did not want the wall between them and the village. As the service economy was Palestinians.

Whole thing reeks of colonialism.

The effect of the occupation has been detrimental to the Palestinian economy.

 

[Knotted]

This is grim (not graphic)

 

[Gramsci]

Israel faces uncertain economic future after six months of war

Financial rating agencies say the continuation of the war has led to a negative economic outlook

www.middleeasteye.net

Let's see how they survive without exploited Palestinian labour

Did notice this:

“In contrast to other sectors, geopolitical tensions increase interest and investment in cyber companies,” Amir Rapaport, founder of cyber company Cybertech Global, told Reuters. “Therefore, we expect to see more investments in Israeli cyber companies and new start-ups that address emerging threats.”

Never let war go to waste.

Israel’s Spy-Tech Industry Is a Global Threat to Democracy

Israel has developed one of the most advanced surveillance industries in the world. With government support, companies like the NSO Group have been offering their services to authoritarian regimes to help them clamp down on political dissent.

jacobin.com

Although they pay lip service to democratic ideals, the countries of the self-styled free world not only tolerate Israel’s authoritarian exports but also enable them. Israel must be held accountable for its role in undermining democracies and emboldening autocratic regimes. The self-proclaimed “startup nation” that the West likes to call the “only democracy in the Middle East” must be questioned on its rogue surveillance industry.

 

[Gramsci]

The American Palestinian historian has the "Long Read" in the Guardian today.

I've read his book he mentions in article.

The attack on Gaza is the latest event in what he calls the hundred years war on Palestine.

In his work he foregrounds the importance to Zionism and later Israel of western international governments support. First British empire and now USA. Without this support Zionism/ Israel would be hard pressed to act in way it does.

He sees younger generation in West as being more pro Palestine. Now they have other ways of getting news than the mainstream press.

The non Western world such as South Africa are taking more of a role now.

He says Biden is basically continuing policies of Trump re Israel.

The "normalisation" process being one. If this had continued the Palestinians would have been left with little support.

The Arab people are very pro Palestine. The autocratic leaders aren't.

The peace process was a sham. No western country will stand up to Israel to make a real two state solution.

‘A new abyss’: Gaza and the hundred years’ war on Palestine

The long read: While much has changed since 7 October, the horrific events of the past six months are not unique, and do not stand outside history

www.theguardian.com

It's quite a bleak picture.