teqniq
DisMembered
Notice the use of the word 'approved'
UN says Israel approved reopening of 20 bakeries, water pipeline in northern Gaza
UN says Israel approved reopening of 20 bakeries, water pipeline in northern Gaza
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Several media outlets are reporting that the IDF has withdrawn from southern Gaza.
edit: various links -
www.theguardian.com
www.jpost.com
edit: various links -
Middle East crisis live: Iranian official warns that none of Israel’s embassies are safe any more
Tehran views confrontation with Israel as ‘legitimate and legal right’, says senior adviser to Iran’s supreme leader
Is the war over? IDF ends active ground invasion, completely withdraws from southern Gaza
The decision also came less than two days after Israel opened the Erez Crossing and Ashdod port to transfer humanitarian aid.
www.jpost.com
Last edited:
teqniq
DisMembered
Yes i have seen this reported on Twitter. They are saying just one brigade left to stop people returning to the north.
E2a: Times of Israel journalist:
Last edited:
barlimo
Well-Known Member
barlimo
Well-Known Member
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Israel still posturing about an operation in Rafah. Withdrawing troops could signal both a deescalation and an imminent escalation. They're pointedly talking up the latter. But then they've been doing that for weeks now.
Israel ‘pulls out troops’ from southern Gaza as attacks enter seventh month
Israel ‘pulls out troops’ from southern Gaza as attacks enter seventh month
YouSir
Retired from Urban
Struggle to see any way for Netanyahu not to go in really, the only support he has is from the Right and they're psychopathic, let them down and he's completely alone. US has already shown that they'll do nothing about it too. Not much hope for deescalation is there?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't read it like that. I think it's genuinely on a knife's edge. He's been threatening to go in for so long that something has stopped him so far. Cearly he can't keep threatening it forever and retain credibility, but it seems like he's trying to play both sides.
My guess - and clearly it is only a guess - is that he genuinely can't work out what to do next. I get the impression that he's taking his own personal survival day to day at the moment. There is no sense of a medium-term plan for anything, let alone a long-term one.
If Israel does mount an assault on Rafah, that will not only be disastrous for the Gazans. It will also be disastrous for Israel.
teqniq
DisMembered
Tick-tock:
www.theguardian.com
Six months in, the war in Gaza has dramatically shifted – and Israel is running out of road | Nesrine Malik
Israel’s appalling conduct was predicted by many, yet ignored by its allies. Now even they are distancing themselves, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
One of those things where it almost feels futile tracking individual deaths, especially ones that are kind of natural causes, but Walid Daqqah has just died in prison:
peoplesdispatch.org
Previous statements about him from Amnesty:
www.amnesty.org
www.amnesty.org
Palestinian prisoner Walid Daqqah dies in Israeli occupation prison : Peoples Dispatch
The Palestinian revolutionary spent 38 years in occupation prisons and was suffering from terminal bone marrow cancer and lung disease
peoplesdispatch.org
Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: Further Information: Release Terminally Ill Palestinian Prisoner: Walid Daqqah - Amnesty International
Walid Daqqah is a terminally ill Palestinian prisoner who was diagnosed with a rare case of bone marrow cancer. Since 7 October 2023, Walid Daqqah has been tortured, humiliated, denied family visits and has faced further medical neglect. During this period, he was transferred to hospital twice...
www.amnesty.org
Israeli authorities should release Walid Daqqah on humanitarian grounds
Palestinian prisoner Walid Daqqah is terminally ill and has been denied access to specialist healthcare.
www.amnesty.org
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Opinion polls show little support for Netanyahu but support for the ongoing war by IDF in Gaza.
This article goes over opinion polls.
www.atlanticcouncil.org
Whilst low support for Netanyahu :
And:
Going on about about Netanyahu is all very well. And a lot of Israelis for reasons that go back a long way preceding this recent conflict think he should go.
If he ever goes that does not mean that some of the things his government have been doing will stop.
This is not about getting rid of this particular hard right government or Netanyahu as though that will solve everything. Joe Public in Israel might hammer Netanyahu if election comes up but they do not necessarily want the policies to stop.
This article goes over opinion polls.
Netanyahu might be losing ground, but his politics still resonate with most Israelis
Polls show that the Israeli public is torn on many issues, but trust in Netanyahu’s government is not one of them.
www.atlanticcouncil.org
Whilst low support for Netanyahu :
And:
Going on about about Netanyahu is all very well. And a lot of Israelis for reasons that go back a long way preceding this recent conflict think he should go.
If he ever goes that does not mean that some of the things his government have been doing will stop.
This is not about getting rid of this particular hard right government or Netanyahu as though that will solve everything. Joe Public in Israel might hammer Netanyahu if election comes up but they do not necessarily want the policies to stop.
Last edited:
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Listening to interview with Antony Loewenstein author of
www.versobooks.com
He points out that Israeli public in polls often support these kinds of policies in post of mine above this one
To get change in Israel / Palestine requires outside pressure.
So support like PSC do here/ marches etc/ pressure on western politicians is all important.
The Palestine Laboratory
Shortlisted for the 2023 Moore Prize for Human Rights WritingShortlisted for the 2023 Walkley non fiction journalism prizeIsrael's military industrial complex uses the occupied, Palestinian territories as a testing ground for weaponry and surveillance technology that they then export around the...
www.versobooks.com
He points out that Israeli public in polls often support these kinds of policies in post of mine above this one
To get change in Israel / Palestine requires outside pressure.
So support like PSC do here/ marches etc/ pressure on western politicians is all important.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is a bit like opinion polls in Russia and Ukraine about their war. It's not surprising that a majority in a country at war, when polled, say that they support that war. But I'm not sure what relevance that has. What do we do with this rather general phenomenon that people tend to get behind 'their troops' in times of war, however terrible what is being done in their name might be? Particularly when Israelis right now have to make an effort to find anything in their media that isn't spewing propaganda at them.Opinion polls show little support for Netanyahu but support for the ongoing war by IDF in Gaza.
This article goes over opinion polls.
Netanyahu might be losing ground, but his politics still resonate with most Israelis
Polls show that the Israeli public is torn on many issues, but trust in Netanyahu’s government is not one of them.
Whilst low support for Netanyahu :
And:
Going on about about Netanyahu is all very well. And a lot of Israelis for reasons that go back a long way preceding this recent conflict think he should go.
If he ever goes that does not mean that some of the things his government have been doing will stop.
This is not about getting rid of this particular hard right government or Netanyahu as though that will solve everything. Joe Public in Israel might hammer Netanyahu if election comes up but they do not necessarily want the policies to stop.
Of course the problem is far deeper than Netanyahu. And clearly there is significant support for extremism and racism in Israel, hence they have an extremist and racist government in the first place. But it is Netanyahu making the decisions right now, albeit severely constrained by the nature of his coalition. I would argue that the particular circumstances of Netanyahu - facing jail, propped up by people even more extreme than him - help to explain the brutality of the last six months. That's not irrelevant.
That said, I do agree with you that outside pressure is needed. Israel clearly isn't going to miraculously reform itself from within.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
It is naive to think ousting Netanyahu will mean anything beyond some new faces in the next ultra right wing Israeli Regime.
"A January poll of Jewish Israelis found 88% thought that the shocking death toll in Gaza – then 25,000 people – was justified, and a majority said the Israel Defense Forces were using either “adequate” or “too little” force. Another recent IDI poll found that two-thirds of Jewish Israelis were opposed to the establishment of an independent, demilitarised Palestinian state."
Hatred in both sides is baked in and it's apparent that the majority in Israel don't see Palestinians as people but as a collective that needs to be destroyed.
You don't hear of many polls out of Palestine but hard to imagine they feel anything other than hate for Israel
Constant claims from Israel that they are going after Hamas only ....well its Bullshit and the world knows
"A January poll of Jewish Israelis found 88% thought that the shocking death toll in Gaza – then 25,000 people – was justified, and a majority said the Israel Defense Forces were using either “adequate” or “too little” force. Another recent IDI poll found that two-thirds of Jewish Israelis were opposed to the establishment of an independent, demilitarised Palestinian state."
Hatred in both sides is baked in and it's apparent that the majority in Israel don't see Palestinians as people but as a collective that needs to be destroyed.
You don't hear of many polls out of Palestine but hard to imagine they feel anything other than hate for Israel
Constant claims from Israel that they are going after Hamas only ....well its Bullshit and the world knows
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
I have wondered if Netanyahu and his criminal gang were hoping Egypt would open the Rafah gate and allow people to escape, thus ethnically cleansing Gaza and clearing the way for settlements.
I thought I'd seen a news item some weeks ago, saying Egypt were building a structure on their side of the border with Gaza; the implication (I thought) was that they would take in Palestinians fleeing the IDF terror, but keep them corralled in a refugee camp.
Haven't been able to find any further info about this; does anyone recall seeing such an article?
Or is Egypt allowing Gazan refugees in, but only on exceptional medical grounds?
Well to be fair FF also very much behind Palestine and were for months before Simon Harris shouted about it. He does like to shout.Grudging respect for the otherwise awful FG
Harris tells Israeli PM that Ireland is repulsed by his actions
Mr Harris said that Ireland stands ready to recognise the Palestinian state while calling for a two-state solutionwww.irishexaminer.com
SF also behind Palestine for decades.
Nobody is against Palestine.here.
Ireland has always had an affinity with Palestine. My grandmother used to refer to them as "the poor Palestinians" as she recalled the time of the Nakba. So.. yeah.. Ireland historically has supported Palestinians. And the Palestinian cause for their own freedom.
Last edited:
It's so weird watching UK based news channels.. the interviewers have seemed to be pro Israel.
Not like that over here.
This is what I've also been really worrying about. Withdrawal of troops in order to keep the IDF safe whilst at the same time loading up for a massive air strike on Rafah.
I do not believe Netanyahu is just going to pull back.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Initially, Ireland was actually in favour of the idea of Zionism but that changed after what was done to the Palestinian people. The only full on supporters of Israeli aggression now, in Ireland, are right wingers. At least, if you are unlucky enough to follow Irish social media lately.
Not seen anything at all in Ireland that is pro Netanyahu or pro what IDF is doing in Gaza.
Where are you looking?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think there's a lot of people in ireland who are pro netanyahu getting what he richly deserves
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
My optimism has proved wrong before, but I think striking Rafah is becoming decreasingly likely. This doesn't feel like the initial ceasefire. Israel no longer has the likes of the US and Germany fully on its side. It can't so easily summon up memories of 7 October to justify its slaughter.
This conflict has been an eye-opener for me wrt Germany, I must admit. Hadn't thought too hard about it before. It now supplies about a third of Israel's arms. It is no longer reticent to involve itself in international conflicts, and it is not slow to suppress opposition at home. But even there, rebellion is being fomented, with civil servants signing letters of objection.
German civil servants demand ‘immediate’ end to Israeli arms supplies
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
This is back when the state of Israel was starting up. Support for the state later faded. There's better sources than the admittedly pro-zionist chronicle, which I'll try to find
Does Ireland support Israel? How the Emerald Isle fell out of love with Jews
From supporting the overthrow of the British to leading condemnation at the EU in just decades
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Here's another one closer to homeThis is back when the state of Israel was starting up. Support for the state later faded. There's better sources than the admittedly pro-zionist chronicle, which I'll try to find
Does Ireland support Israel? How the Emerald Isle fell out of love with Jews
From supporting the overthrow of the British to leading condemnation at the EU in just decadeswww.thejc.com
Ireland, Israel and Palestine: how politics and history have created a complicated relationship
Ireland is attempting to re-kindle support for a solution to the conflict.
www.thejournal.ie
"Irish people were originally sympathetic towards the Zionist movement, which aimed to create a Jewish state, because of a general feeling that both groups had suffered oppression.
That changed around the 1930s, when plans to partition Israel and Palestine gained momentum."
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
I know it seems insurmountable when looking at such polling, but I do wonder how permanent the views in that polling are. October 7th was a massacre, a revolt and all the other things but it was also the absolute and irrevocable failure of a policy that the government has followed for much of the past thirty to forty years, and especially under Netanyahu's regime.
This policy has seen the exclusive use of force (ever-escalating force, really) used in order to intimidate the occupied population into silence or flight, with no alternative incentives offered to support that (indeed Israeli government policy for much of the past twenty years has been deliberately aimed at undermining alternatives to violent resistance) and with the expectation that Israeli security will increase afterwards. The policy has instead resulted in an ever-worsening security situation for Israel as a whole. Sooner rather than later someone within Israeli politics is going to point this out and be listened to, and the fact that this policy is intimately linked to so many people associated with this horrific failure could make people realise what their government has done.
andysays
Love and solidarity
I remember that being mentioned and briefly discussed on here a few weeks ago, but not seen anything recently.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Israel has been through this before in 1973.
Which was another colossal intelligence failure. And pulled through it.
To look at it this from glass half empty view.
Eyal Weissmann, as a dissident Israeli, points out in his book on the occupation that things like building the Wall in West bank or as its called in Israel the separation wall got public support in Israel. Despite the opposition it got outside Israel.
Those in Israel who opposed all of this and want a just deal for Palestinians are a small minority. Many like Ilan Pappe or Eyal Weissman end up leaving. Pappe because his career as academic was at an end in Israel due to his views.
I think the policy can be seen going on since 48.
Prior to October 7th not just Netanyahu but military establishment thought they had Palestinians under control in a low intensity conflict. With Palestinians gradually losing more land in West Bank to settlements. To scupper any two state solution.
If your going to take one peoples land to make your own state that state is always going to be in a situation of low intensity conflict. A never ending one. Its something Eyal Weissman goes on about. A problem with this is that military solutions become the politics. A counter intuitive result of this is that the end result of more military solutions is more resistance. So it ends up as a spiral. If I read him right. In which case the attack on the 7th was predictable.
The peace process from Israeli side was about managing this better. It was not about acknowledging the Nakba for example.
The alternative Israel offered was a series of non contiguous pieces of land surrounded by Israeli settlements and roads. With Israel have control of airspace and some of the water resources below. A , in the new incarnation that depressingly is resurfacing, "demilitarised" Palestinian state.
Given that context the action of this particular Israeli government has a rational basis. Containing Palestinian resistance in low intensity conflict has failed/ the Palestinians saw through the "peace process" and no longer buy it/ the section of Palestinian politicians that did are now discredited.
So doing another Nakba makes sense.
On the glass half full.
I'd say SA taking Israel to court. The non western world seeing through the double standards of a lot of west. ( Not all Eire and Spain ) Are examples.
And the spontaneous outpouring of support for Palestinians in this country and across world is heartening.
I've a lot of respect for those Jewish Israelis who oppose the Zionist state. Having read some of their books. I'm rather afraid they are minority. It will take world public pressure to make Israel change.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But I'm a bit more pessimistic when it comes to Israeli public changing their minds.
I could be wrong.
TBF I really did not see the onslaught by IDF continuing this long. Really thought Biden/ USA would tell Israel to stop.
For me the eye opener is the impunity Israel has had for decades. And still has now. Its my view now that Israel is not being picked on in way others are not. Its the opposite Israel has repeatedly been censured by NGOs and sections of UN but is able to ignore all that because of support it gets from countries like mine and USA
Last edited:
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I have not read Avi Shlaim but here is lecture he gave on Britain and the Balfour declaration.
A reason why anyone who comes from this country has legitimate interest in what is happening in Israel / Palestine
After his talks he takes questions.
He was born in middle east and in other talk by him he classifies himself as Arab Jew. As his family comes from middle east. He grew up in Israel.
In the Q&A after his talk he says along with Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris he was part of the New Historians of Israel who questioned its founding myths. Such as the establishment of state was a national liberation war.
For him Israel state is a colonial state. A State that practises Apartheid. That took the land of Palestinians.
The British with the Balfour declaration played a shameful part in this. With the Balfour declaration being written into the Mandate.
He says he used to believe in a Two state solution. He now believes in a One State solution. That Arabs and Jews living side by side in One state is in his words a noble idea.
He has lived in this country for many years. He says he supported Corbyn and is in Jewish Voice for Labour. That anti semitism has been "weaponised". That there is a difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism. Anti Zionism is not anti Semitic.
Its not that long and the Q and A is best part. Some of the earlier history I already new. He does draw comparisons between past of Balfour declaration and present. Particularly with Boris who was PM then. The legacy of Balfour lives on.
He is good at explaining the history clearly and is generous to other historians. So its a good short intro to Britain and the Balfour declaration/ Mandate.
He says that things have changed over recent years. With newer generation being much more pro Palestinian.
A reason why anyone who comes from this country has legitimate interest in what is happening in Israel / Palestine
After his talks he takes questions.
He was born in middle east and in other talk by him he classifies himself as Arab Jew. As his family comes from middle east. He grew up in Israel.
In the Q&A after his talk he says along with Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris he was part of the New Historians of Israel who questioned its founding myths. Such as the establishment of state was a national liberation war.
For him Israel state is a colonial state. A State that practises Apartheid. That took the land of Palestinians.
The British with the Balfour declaration played a shameful part in this. With the Balfour declaration being written into the Mandate.
He says he used to believe in a Two state solution. He now believes in a One State solution. That Arabs and Jews living side by side in One state is in his words a noble idea.
He has lived in this country for many years. He says he supported Corbyn and is in Jewish Voice for Labour. That anti semitism has been "weaponised". That there is a difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism. Anti Zionism is not anti Semitic.
Its not that long and the Q and A is best part. Some of the earlier history I already new. He does draw comparisons between past of Balfour declaration and present. Particularly with Boris who was PM then. The legacy of Balfour lives on.
He is good at explaining the history clearly and is generous to other historians. So its a good short intro to Britain and the Balfour declaration/ Mandate.
He says that things have changed over recent years. With newer generation being much more pro Palestinian.
Last edited:
Similar threads
