PTK
Paul Kegan
On the West Bank.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Oh noes. 3 (teleprinter - THREE) dead US servicemen in a secret (not so secret) base in Syria, which the US pretends is a base in Jordan, means direct retaliation is needed because the incumbent US President is losing in the polls in election year so Iran will get bombed.
Keep up.
And...Iran.
(Apologies, couldn't be bothered to look for a relevant thread. Just compare 3 with 30,000).
Keep up.
And...Iran.
(Apologies, couldn't be bothered to look for a relevant thread. Just compare 3 with 30,000).
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Yes it is surreal:
3 US soldiers get killed by a drone which is a weapon the US uses with great regularity and little news coverage. But the 3 soldiers het headlines
Countless Palestinians murdered by the genocidal IDF, which the US arms and nothing happens....yet when the genocide perpetrators accuse 7 UN officials of taking part in 7/10 their funding gets cut by the US and their poodles like the UK.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Just finished this short book ( just over 100 pages) from a Liberal Zionist perspective.
www.penguinrandomhouse.com
A good read. Some of it been covered elsewhere. As with Anti Zionists he now regards Israel as an Apartheid State. With its long term occupation of West Bank and Gaza de facto annexation.
So Palestinians should have in his opinion Israeli citizenship.
What distinguishes him from anti Zionists is that he says a Bi National State was a position of early Zionists.
Its an interesting position.
He has sections on the liberal state. He comes from a liberal perspective not radical one.
He argues that the present day Israeli state does not count as a liberal democratic state. In practise its a an ethnocratic democracy for Jews only.
A liberal democratic state treats citizens as neutral , whatever their background. Israeli state as it has developed has gone the other way. Its a state for Jews.
He says two of things about foundation of Israel.
The British Peel commission of the 1930s made population transfer ( ethnic cleansing ) respectable.
( I differ here. Zionists lobbied Peel to include population transfer)
Once that was made official people like David Ben Gurion became more interested in it.
The second is the Holocaust. This pushed Zionists to position that liberal democracy in Europe had failed to protect Jews as a minority so a state purely for Jews was required. In order to protect the remaining Jews.
Hence the Nabka.
He mentions the Israeli historian Benny Morris. Morris does not deny the Nakba, position is that it did not go far enough. He is the "you cannot make a omelette without breaking eggs" view. Given the historical circumstance of the time David Ben Gurion et all should have gone all the way and expelled Palestinians from all of Palestine. His view is that great democracies like USA were built on the dirty work of ethnic cleansing. And its historically required. He however is honest about this and does not deny it. His view is that if that was done in 48 it would have meant the problems now would have been avoided. Not saying the writer of this pamphlet agreed with this.
This is different from Ilan Pappe who regards the Nakba as a war crime and the foundation of Israels later actions in oppressing and removing the indigenous population to make state for Jews.
Both historians btw are Israeli Jews,
He has whole section on how the Holocaust is used to justify the Israeli state. In first decades Holocaust did not feature. It was the show trial of Eichmann that changed all that. David Ben Gurion made sure of that.
After that Holocaust became a founding principle of Israeli ( Jewish) identity. He points out that the Nakba was not remembered in the same way. It was hardly acknowledged.
He regards this in Israel as misuse of the history of Holocaust.
This gave justification that Israel is exceptional state. ( see this with reaction to ICJ ruling)
He goes onto political philosophy of what is a citizen and a state. The ideal , from his perspective , is a citizen who is patriotic to a republican state. But not nationalist. Nationalist is based on racial or other kind of identity. Which excludes others.
To get to a republican state which is not nationalist remembering and forgetting is required.
In Palestine / Israel case Palestinians need to acknowledge what Holocaust means to Jews and Israeli Jews need to acknowledge the Nakba. Both side need to remember.
Then as citizens need to put this aside and look to a future where both communities live side by side.
He looks at philosophers who say the past should not determine the future. (Nietzsche)
Lastly he argues that Liberal Zionism has roots in the very early Zionist ideas of a bi national state.
National self determination does not have to be about exclusive sovereignty.
National self determination of a people can take place in a bi national state of Palestinian and Jews.
So he says he is not an anti Zionist he regards himself as still a Zionist who is picking up ideas from early days of Zionism.
Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel by Omri Boehm: 9781681373935 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books
A provocative argument for a new way of seeing Israel, Zionism, and the two-state solution. Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel is an urgent wake-up call. The philosopher Omri Boehm argues...
www.penguinrandomhouse.com
A good read. Some of it been covered elsewhere. As with Anti Zionists he now regards Israel as an Apartheid State. With its long term occupation of West Bank and Gaza de facto annexation.
So Palestinians should have in his opinion Israeli citizenship.
What distinguishes him from anti Zionists is that he says a Bi National State was a position of early Zionists.
Its an interesting position.
He has sections on the liberal state. He comes from a liberal perspective not radical one.
He argues that the present day Israeli state does not count as a liberal democratic state. In practise its a an ethnocratic democracy for Jews only.
A liberal democratic state treats citizens as neutral , whatever their background. Israeli state as it has developed has gone the other way. Its a state for Jews.
He says two of things about foundation of Israel.
The British Peel commission of the 1930s made population transfer ( ethnic cleansing ) respectable.
( I differ here. Zionists lobbied Peel to include population transfer)
Once that was made official people like David Ben Gurion became more interested in it.
The second is the Holocaust. This pushed Zionists to position that liberal democracy in Europe had failed to protect Jews as a minority so a state purely for Jews was required. In order to protect the remaining Jews.
Hence the Nabka.
He mentions the Israeli historian Benny Morris. Morris does not deny the Nakba, position is that it did not go far enough. He is the "you cannot make a omelette without breaking eggs" view. Given the historical circumstance of the time David Ben Gurion et all should have gone all the way and expelled Palestinians from all of Palestine. His view is that great democracies like USA were built on the dirty work of ethnic cleansing. And its historically required. He however is honest about this and does not deny it. His view is that if that was done in 48 it would have meant the problems now would have been avoided. Not saying the writer of this pamphlet agreed with this.
This is different from Ilan Pappe who regards the Nakba as a war crime and the foundation of Israels later actions in oppressing and removing the indigenous population to make state for Jews.
Both historians btw are Israeli Jews,
He has whole section on how the Holocaust is used to justify the Israeli state. In first decades Holocaust did not feature. It was the show trial of Eichmann that changed all that. David Ben Gurion made sure of that.
After that Holocaust became a founding principle of Israeli ( Jewish) identity. He points out that the Nakba was not remembered in the same way. It was hardly acknowledged.
He regards this in Israel as misuse of the history of Holocaust.
This gave justification that Israel is exceptional state. ( see this with reaction to ICJ ruling)
He goes onto political philosophy of what is a citizen and a state. The ideal , from his perspective , is a citizen who is patriotic to a republican state. But not nationalist. Nationalist is based on racial or other kind of identity. Which excludes others.
To get to a republican state which is not nationalist remembering and forgetting is required.
In Palestine / Israel case Palestinians need to acknowledge what Holocaust means to Jews and Israeli Jews need to acknowledge the Nakba. Both side need to remember.
Then as citizens need to put this aside and look to a future where both communities live side by side.
He looks at philosophers who say the past should not determine the future. (Nietzsche)
Lastly he argues that Liberal Zionism has roots in the very early Zionist ideas of a bi national state.
National self determination does not have to be about exclusive sovereignty.
National self determination of a people can take place in a bi national state of Palestinian and Jews.
So he says he is not an anti Zionist he regards himself as still a Zionist who is picking up ideas from early days of Zionism.
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel by Omri Boehm: 9781681373935 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books
A provocative argument for a new way of seeing Israel, Zionism, and the two-state solution. Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel is an urgent wake-up call. The philosopher Omri Boehm argues...
www.penguinrandomhouse.com
The reason the book is call Haifi Republic is that this is town where still Palestinians and Jews live side by side.
He's not saying its perfect but its practical viewpoint that is saying there is a possibility that Jews and Palestinians can live side by side.
This pre dates the present war.
He say the political parties who were Liberal Zionist are now marginalised. Rabin was murdered and the dream of a peace lost.
There is a "Joint List" of Arab parties in Israel who were doing ok electorally.
His argument is that polling figure mean that some Liberal Zionist Israelis are now voting for the Joint List. Given demise of left Zionism as credible political force. He also say some Left Zionist parties have made unholy alliances with right to keep in power.
He sees this as opportunity for Palestinian Israelis and Jewish Israelis to work together to build a new politics moved towards a One state which is bi national.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
On a side note, great to see Scotland not pausing funding to UNRWA. Though it will definitely give the yoons/Scottish gammons something to kick off about.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
What's the point of an APPG for prevention of genocide and crimes against humanity if its members cherry-pick which crimes to oppose? Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all. But, especially, fuck the white supremacist, genocide-enabling Labour Party.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I emailed the Foreign Office about the export of arms to the State of Israel, and in the generic reply there was the following:
“No-one wants to see this conflict go on a moment longer than necessary. This means achieving a sustainable ceasefire - one that will last and prevent another generation of children living under the constant threat of war - with Hamas no longer in power in Gaza, able to threaten Israel with rocket attacks and other forms of terrorism.”
If the position of the government of the UK is that Hamas should be removed from power in the Gaza Strip, then it actually opposesthe negotiation of a “sustainable ceasefire”, for Hamas is never going to agree to its removal from power.
“No-one wants to see this conflict go on a moment longer than necessary. This means achieving a sustainable ceasefire - one that will last and prevent another generation of children living under the constant threat of war - with Hamas no longer in power in Gaza, able to threaten Israel with rocket attacks and other forms of terrorism.”
If the position of the government of the UK is that Hamas should be removed from power in the Gaza Strip, then it actually opposesthe negotiation of a “sustainable ceasefire”, for Hamas is never going to agree to its removal from power.
ska invita
back on the other side
well maybe thats a possibility though it will just open up the next wave of ethnic cleansing to the last prized area
i cant see how it can be on any territory that was gaza, overground or underground
likud are being brazen about the occupation they have planned, tehy're make public their maps of the new occupied territory
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archive.ph
who can stop them? this is tacitly approved by the US&co whose one decisive move is to make sure everyone starving acutally does starve by cutting off the trickle of aid
anyhow the This Makes Hamas stronger argument, I cant see how
PTK
Paul Kegan
Thank you for your posts on this book. They are interesting. Perhaps they are an example of why it is not useful to use the term "Zionist".Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel by Omri Boehm: 9781681373935 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books
A provocative argument for a new way of seeing Israel, Zionism, and the two-state solution. Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel is an urgent wake-up call. The philosopher Omri Boehm argues...
The reason the book is call Haifi Republic is that this is town where still Palestinians and Jews live side by side.
He's not saying its perfect but its practical viewpoint that is saying there is a possibility that Jews and Palestinians can live side by side.
This pre dates the present war.
He say the political parties who were Liberal Zionist are now marginalised. Rabin was murdered and the dream of a peace lost.
There is a "Joint List" of Arab parties in Israel who were doing ok electorally.
His argument is that polling figure mean that some Liberal Zionist Israelis are now voting for the Joint List. Given demise of left Zionism as credible political force. He also say some Left Zionist parties have made unholy alliances with right to
He sees this as opportunity for Palestinian Israelis and Jewish Israelis to work together to build a new politics moved towards a One state which is bi national.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
This is a righteous denunciation and I'm a bit surprised to see the guardian publish it. Though it would have been even better as an editorial rather than just an opinion piece: Why do America’s liberal hawks attack Russia while giving Israel a free pass? | Peter Beinart
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
In the same way, though obviously on a different scale, that Bloody Sunday made the PIRA stronger. Resistance builds on injustice. And the worse the injustice, the stronger the resistance.
Bingoman
Well-Known Member
FM Israel Katz cancels meeting with UNRWA head
Foreign Minister Israel Katz said he directed Foreign Ministry workers to cancel any meetings with UNRWA chief
www.jpost.com
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
YouSir
Retired from Urban
They've secured generations of new recruits from the slaughter and trauma that's gone on and I'm willing to bet they've made money from all of this, state and private actors will be happy to fund an ongoing resistance movement whether that's out of a sense of moral obligation or just blind political opportunism. Israel will never be able to keep all weapons out of whatever remains of Palestinian land. And they'll have even less control if they get their wish and manage to push a significant portion of people out of the country completely.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It is, but even then it fails to give the answer that is staring everyone in the face - that if you work in politics, associated media or senior academic circles in the US that you will face severe consequences if the pro-Israel lobby think they dislike your opinions on this subject.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Idly speculating - could a US hit on Iran Aircraft Manufacturing Industries (HESA) and Qods Aviation Industries (QAI), which most notably produce the Ababil and Mohajer families of drones solve two problems as once - the Houthis and Russian attacks on Ukraine?
BTW there is a subsidiary drone factory in Tajikistan under the same management: Iran’s drone factory in Tajikistan
BTW there is a subsidiary drone factory in Tajikistan under the same management: Iran’s drone factory in Tajikistan
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
PS to the above - seems Russian drones contain repurposed mobile phone SIM cards!
Shahed-136 With Cellular Modem Found In Ukraine: What It Means
Here are the possibilities of what the addition of improvised cellular communications to Russia's Shahed drones means.
www.thedrive.com
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
Quite some report tonight on Ch4 news re far right Israeli conference.
YouSir
Retired from Urban
All so incredibly familiar. Same voices gagging for war, same blind repetition of the narrative for it.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
would be a great title for a book about UK government policy post 1979, that
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
What I was referring to. Surely there can be no doubt whatsoever about Israel's attitude towards Palestinians.
www.channel4.com
Israel-Gaza: US condemns conference call for Israeli reestablishment of Gaza settlements
The White House has condemned a conference in Jerusalem attended by more than ten members of the Israeli government - calling for settlements to be re-established in Gaza, along with the mass relocation of the Palestinian population.
www.channel4.com
teqniq
DisMembered
Yes I saw this on Twitter earlier along with a number of vids of settlers stopping aid from entering Gaza.What I was referring to. Surely there can be no doubt whatsoever about Israel's attitude towards Palestinians.
Israel-Gaza: US condemns conference call for Israeli reestablishment of Gaza settlements
The White House has condemned a conference in Jerusalem attended by more than ten members of the Israeli government - calling for settlements to be re-established in Gaza, along with the mass relocation of the Palestinian population.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Watching Owen Jones this evening and he has piece on Labour MP suspended due to equating what is happening in Gaza as Genocide.
This in Starmer party is enough to get suspended.
The politically correct terminology is that what is happening in Gaza is a "humanitarian catastrophe"
Saying that remembering the Holocaust and other genocides in history is also about a warning from history and can be related to what is happening in present day is according to the Starmer lot a misuse of history.
Sometimes I think politics is just a load of old bollox. After watching Owen Jones good piece on this Im feeling do I want to vote?
This in Starmer party is enough to get suspended.
The politically correct terminology is that what is happening in Gaza is a "humanitarian catastrophe"
Saying that remembering the Holocaust and other genocides in history is also about a warning from history and can be related to what is happening in present day is according to the Starmer lot a misuse of history.
Sometimes I think politics is just a load of old bollox. After watching Owen Jones good piece on this Im feeling do I want to vote?
Kate Osamor: Labour suspends MP over Gaza remarks in Holocaust message
The MP for Edmonton apologises after saying Gaza should be remembered as genocide on Holocaust Memorial Day.
www.bbc.co.uk
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Its well worth a read.
Problem I have with it is that its in effect One State solution. Which to all intents and purposes is end to Zionism.
I do not have a problem with that. But he tries so hard to reconcile Zionism with this view.
When he blames Peel Commission for advocating population transfer I part company with him.
On one hand he criticises mainstream Zionist leaders of left and right then he tries to argue that the leading figures in early Zionism were for a bi national state then the Peel report came along.
He is almost saying that it was interference from outside that led away from Jews and Palestinians learning to co inhabit the land
Which simply is not historically correct.
I can see the rational behind the political intervention his pamphlet makes. That their is a possibility to transcend the historical legacies of both sides.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I am a member of the Labour Party and I am going to spoil my ballot paper, because the local candidate remains silent on this issue, and in general is not worth voting for. I may campaign in another constituency for a left-wing candidate.Watching Owen Jones this evening and he has piece on Labour MP suspended due to equating what is happening in Gaza as Genocide.
This in Starmer party is enough to get suspended.
The politically correct terminology is that what is happening in Gaza is a "humanitarian catastrophe"
Saying that remembering the Holocaust and other genocides in history is also about a warning from history and can be related to what is happening in present day is according to the Starmer lot a misuse of history.
Sometimes I think politics is just a load of old bollox. After watching Owen Jones good piece on this Im feeling do I want to vote?
Kate Osamor: Labour suspends MP over Gaza remarks in Holocaust message
The MP for Edmonton apologises after saying Gaza should be remembered as genocide on Holocaust Memorial Day.www.bbc.co.uk
It annoys me that Labour MPs will praise Nelson Mandela, who faced the death penalty, and they will not stand up and support one of their own who is unfairly suspended.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Was listening to Novara Media this evening and Ash Sarkar made the point that the Labour party adopting the IHRA definition of anti semitism plus the examples means that criticising Israel state as in this case equating Gaza with previous genocides including Holocaust is under that definition labelled as anti semitic.
Going back to the Israeli philosopher Omri Boehm he has whole section in his pamphlet about how Holocaust has been misused in Israeli politics in its later period.
This therefore is not just about Starmer and the right of the party using this for factional gain ( which they are) it also about how criticism is effectively silenced when it comes to Israel. Or attempted to be silenced.
PTK
Paul Kegan
There is an argument that comparing anything to the genocides carried out by the Nazis is Judeophobic because it lessens the crimes of the Nazis, but this argument was never deployed when such comparisons were made decades ago. The actions of the US troops in the My Lai massacre, and other massacres, in Vietnam were likened to the actions of the Nazis.
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