Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[tim]

I think you might need to look back and read the last 3 pages.
I definitely felt I was being called out as antisemitic by someone.

I wasn't accusing you of being antisemitic and I don't think you are an antisemite. However, I was criticising you for repeating unverified claims that you have read on social media, claims which are designed to perpetuate an antisemitic canard. I think this was carelessness not malevolence on your part.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

You could prostrate yourself, naked, covered in bear grease. I reckon that would suffice

DIY video of the proper protocol requested pretty please for future reference

 

[1927]

NATO and the EU are now calling for the extension of the Ceasefire.

Are they to the left of Keir Starmer?

Can someone please explain to me why there is so much trouble with people supporting a ceasefire, isnt that a good thing?

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Can someone please explain to me why there is so much trouble with people supporting a ceasefire, isnt that a good thing?

without wanting to get technical it isn't a ceasefire it's a "humanitarian pause"
it could blow up any seconds
just like a ceasefire could
but the "blair was a pinko communist" current labour candidate did ask for humanitarian pauses so hey misguided posts I guess
no, I don't like the grifter,

 

[Aladdin]

I offer my deepest apologies to Aladdin. I mistakenly attributed a post by someone else to you. I don’t know how to make amends. I promise to not do this again. I am truly sorry for falsely accusing you of something that you did not do.

I didnt see what you wrote.
No worries.

I am pretty amazed at some of the posts others posted.
Nobody looked back and saw that I actually asked if the stuff was true or if it could be verified.
kalidarkone did notice that I had actually asked if the stuff was true...and posted to say this. Tim just ignored her post...
Others just decided tim and others were right and I was fair game...without looking back.

Lesson learned.

Eta.
I dont want to continue this..whatever it was. It detracts from thread.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can someone please explain to me why there is so much trouble with people supporting a ceasefire, isnt that a good thing?

Very good question. Ask keir starmer not us

 

[littlebabyjesus]

IIRC in 2014 it was similar, extension upon extension until the heat of the moment lowered and so much aid was getting in it made it harder. The big difference today is direct ground operations by Israel which is probably why the extensions are days rather than weeks.

I suspect the ploy is to keep getting extensions agreed so it brings it so close to Christmas “something must be done” .etc

The longer it is paused surely the harder it becomes to start up again. And yes, the more aid gets in, the harder it becomes to blow up that aid.

My impression is that they still want to go after northern Gaza. Fuck's sake, it's so tiny it seems absurd to talk of a north and a south. But that doesn't mean they will be able to.

 

[8ball]

I don't think it's fair to say Hamas are 'ahead in the propaganda war'. More and more people are sympathizing with the Palestinians because of the obvious injustice and brutality of the Israeli bombing campaign. Israel is losing the propaganda war despite Hamas, not because of it. Nobody cares about Hamas. People care about thousands of dead and mutilated children.

I think this makes my point for me.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think this makes my point for me.

Not at all, it explicitly makes a different point.

 

[8ball]

Not at all, it explicitly makes a different point.

Explicitly, to you, sure.

 

[mojo pixy]

Explicitly, to you, sure.

Explicitly, full stop. You were wrong: Hamas is not 'winning a propaganda war'. Sympathy for the abused population of Gaza is not the same as sympathy for Hamas. Israeli officials and IDF spokespeople would say any opposition to Israeli violence implies tacit support for Hamas. But that's bullshit, and it needs saying again and again.

Still, if it really were that easy for other posters to make your points for you, there was no need for you to post any more. Job done.

 

[ska invita]

Can someone please explain to me why there is so much trouble with people supporting a ceasefire, isnt that a good thing?

Argument is Israel has a right to destroy Hamas and get the job done. A ceasefire effectively stops the killing
and doesnt destroy Hamas

There is a categorical problem though - the government are happy to consider all Palestinians as Hamas. Or Nazis, depending on the time of day

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/smotrich-defends-boost-in-funds-for-settlers-saying-theyre-used-for-security-against-nazi-palestinians/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThere%20are%202%20million%20Nazis,West%20Bank%20than%20in%20Gaza.

 

[andysays]

I think you might need to look back and read the last 3 pages.
I definitely felt I was being called out as antisemitic by someone.

TBH, I think you're the one who needs to go back and re-read.

You may have felt you were being called out, back that doesn't mean that's what LDC was doing

 

[Pickman's model]

Explicitly, full stop. You were wrong: Hamas is not 'winning a propaganda war'. Sympathy for the abused population of Gaza is not the same as sympathy for Hamas. Israeli officials and IDF spokespeople would say any opposition to Israeli violence implies tacit support for Hamas. But that's bullshit, and it needs saying again and again.

Still, if it really were that easy for other posters to make your points for you, there was no need for you to post any more. Job done.

to be fair to poor 8ball, hamas is winning the propaganda war. not, perhaps, through its own efforts, by becoming the most popular people in the world, but by having orchestrated a situation in which the idf and the zionists' government have been abjectly humiliated, the palestinians' plight returning to front pages across the world, and any sympathy the zionists had after october 7 evaporating in the light of the genocidal onslaught on gaza and the murders of palestinians in the west bank. hamas have ensured that unless a just peace ensues (which is yeh as likely as sharon being the next zionist pm) palestinian hatred for the zionists will continue for generations to come. the west has been caught out in rather a bind, with support for ukraine and support for the zionist entity being inconsistent with proclaimed support for international law. the west has in large measure lost support in the global south over support for the brutal, murderous onslaught it has widely applauded and supported in gaza, and this may take years to regain if indeed a measure of trust returns.

while hamas may not be the direct beneficiary of anti-zionist sentiment in this country, in large parts of the world i expect it's done very nicely in terms of gaining support.

 

[8ball]

to be fair to poor 8ball, hamas is winning the propaganda war. not, perhaps, through its own efforts, by becoming the most popular people in the world, but by having orchestrated a situation in which the idf and the zionists' government have been abjectly humiliated, the palestinians' plight returning to front pages across the world, and any sympathy the zionists had after october 7 evaporating in the light of the genocidal onslaught on gaza and the murders of palestinians in the west bank. hamas have ensured that unless a just peace ensues (which is yeh as likely as sharon being the next zionist pm) palestinian hatred for the zionists will continue for generations to come. the west has been caught out in rather a bind, with support for ukraine and support for the zionist entity being inconsistent with proclaimed support for international law. the west has in large measure lost support in the global south over support for the brutal, murderous onslaught it has widely applauded and supported in gaza, and this may take years to regain if indeed a measure of trust returns.

while hamas may not be the direct beneficiary of anti-zionist sentiment in this country, in large parts of the world i expect it's done very nicely in terms of gaining support.

Ah, the penny did drop.
Not where I’d planned, but you saved me a post.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, the penny did drop.
Not where I’d planned, but you saved me a post.

and then you wasted that saved post with this effort

 

[8ball]

and then you wasted that saved post with this effort

See, you do understand irony.

 

[Aladdin]

TBH, I think you're the one who needs to go back and re-read.

You may have felt you were being called out, back that doesn't mean that's what LDC was doing

Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

I think you might need to look back and read the last 3 pages. I definitely felt I was being called out as antisemitic by someone. I wasn't accusing you of being antisemitic and I don't think you are an antisemite. However, I was criticising you for repeating unverified claims that you have...

www.urban75.net

 

[magneze]

Respond Crisis Translation said that her original quote attacking her Israeli captors for the inhumane conditions prisoners were kept under - "they imprisoned us for a month. As winter came, they cut off the electricity. We almost died from the cold weather" - was translated into English subtitles as "and no one helped us. Only Hamas cared. Those who felt our suffering, I thank them very much".

She then said "they sprayed us with pepper spray and left us to die inside the prison", which the subtitles translated as "and we love them very much", which could make it appear as if her sentiments were directed at Hamas.

"She never mentioned Hamas or a word like it," the organisation tweeted.

Language activists accuse BBC of mistranslating released Palestinian prisoner interview

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The longer it is paused surely the harder it becomes to start up again. And yes, the more aid gets in, the harder it becomes to blow up that aid.

My impression is that they still want to go after northern Gaza. Fuck's sake, it's so tiny it seems absurd to talk of a north and a south. But that doesn't mean they will be able to.

That’s the risk, the other element about extending the extensions is it normalises them and international pressure which in turn makes it harder to escalate again…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This gives me hope, there’s a vigil this Sunday 3pm at Downing Street where families of both sides will come together. I suspect many on here may wish to attend.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Argument is Israel has a right to destroy Hamas and get the job done. A ceasefire effectively stops the killing
and doesnt destroy Hamas

There is a categorical problem though - the government are happy to consider all Palestinians as Hamas. Or Nazis, depending on the time of day

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/smotrich-defends-boost-in-funds-for-settlers-saying-theyre-used-for-security-against-nazi-palestinians/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThere%20are%202%20million%20Nazis,West%20Bank%20than%20in%20Gaza.

Exactly. It's a fantasy argument based on a fantasy idea about what Israel is doing and why. It is trying to destroy Gaza, not Hamas. That's been clear right from the start. Even rescuing the hostages has been an afterthought. This deal for a truce in exchange for prisoners was on the table from Hamas for weeks before Israel accepted it. They wanted to get in the requisite destruction and death first.

It is parallel universe thinking. In this parallel universe, Israel is going after Hamas and civilians are getting killed as an unfortunate consequence. Now the likes of Cameron and Bernie Sanders are saying that too many people have been killed. The price is too high so they need to rethink. But of course, that was never the thinking in the first place. (Sanders has been every bit as bad as Keir Starmer through this - very disappointing given his previous support for the Palestinian cause.)

 

[Sasaferrato]

I don't think it's fair to say Hamas are 'ahead in the propaganda war'. More and more people are sympathizing with the Palestinians because of the obvious injustice and brutality of the Israeli bombing campaign. Israel is losing the propaganda war despite Hamas, not because of it. Nobody cares about Hamas. People care about thousands of dead and mutilated children.

I don't think Israel gives a fuck about the 'propaganda war', they do give a fuck about their dead citizens and those who have been kidnapped.

 

[two sheds]

They also don't seem to give a fuck about how many Palestinian civilians they kill, innocent women and children included.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They also don't seem to give a fuck about how many Palestinian civilians they kill, innocent women and children included.

No I disagree. They were very keen to kill a big number of them.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Israel puts an enormous amount of effort and resources into propaganda. The idea they don't care about it is a bit bizarre tbh.

 

[Karl Masks]

I don't think Israel gives a fuck about the 'propaganda war', they do give a fuck about their dead citizens and those who have been kidnapped.

Bombing huge swathes of a densely populated area they believe to contain said hostages seems quite counter productive
to that

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Israel puts an enormous amount of effort and resources into propaganda.

Some of Herzog's recent efforts have been cut-and-paste photoshop jobs tbf. Look like they were done by an intern.

 

[krink]

A story that has been coming and going for a few weeks is Israel refusing to allow Brazilian and Irish people to leave Gaza. The stuff I've read sometimes makes the suggestion that this is because those countries have criticised Israel. Anyone seen anything to support this idea or does anyone know if it is still the case (if true).

 

[Sasaferrato]

Israel puts an enormous amount of effort and resources into propaganda. The idea they don't care about it is a bit bizarre tbh.

I disagree. I honestly don't think that they do.

Hamas were well aware what the result of their actions would be. They are not at all bothered about the deaths in Gaza per se, they see the deaths as a price worth paying propaganda wise.

There has been much on the thread about what Israel shouldn't have done, but nothing as to what they should have done.

What should they have done in response to an attack that killed over 1000 people, and took a couple of hundred hostage? This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested in what U75 feels that the response should have been. It is very easy to say 'Oh, they shouldn't have done that', not so easy to say what should have been done.

My own view is that the response has been disproportionate, I keep seeing this described as a 'war'. It isn't, it is a punitive lashing out in revenge.

What should Israel have done? I don't know, other than it couldn't have been nothing.